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The DPS Instructors told us earlier this month the shooting qualification was indeed based on what police qualify at. However, they are considering changing the test to something closer on a smaller target and less ammo. The reason being the vast numbers of self defense shootings are at a close distance. To me, the distance qualification is still not a bad way to go or something that requires an equal skill. There is no maximum distance that I ever heard of for self defense. What would you do if you were in the open and someone fired on you and your children from a distance? Hope you are lucky or return fire while your kids run for cover? That would be a lousy time to realize you never even tried to hit anything farther away with your handgun than a few yards. Is it a truly remote possibility? Yeah, but we all carry because we know sometimes things happen we didn't see coming. I once had a drunken neighbor who sat in his front yard with a rifle and planned to shoot at the school bus when it came onto "his" private road. The Sheriff showed before the bus came, thankfully. The guy was a nut even when he was sober.

Here is an interview with Lt. Dennis Tueller (Ret.) talking about the erroneously labeled "21 Foot Rule." (I too called it that for years.)

Chas.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=JxeTNnEWmbY[/youtube]

tbrown wrote:I had one instructor who called it the CYA rule. Can You Articulate?

That's a great line, I'm stealing that!

I don't know where the 15 yards for the test came from. Where I work we had to shoot out to 25 yards and in. As for the 21 foot rule the last I heard the FBI was going to change it to the 30 foot rule.

remington79 wrote:I don't know where the 15 yards for the test came from. Where I work we had to shoot out to 25 yards and in. As for the 21 foot rule the last I heard the FBI was going to change it to the 30 foot rule.

... http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... 8352/pg_2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; interesting read...personally, I'm more likely to shoot to stop a knife attack than a gun...I've been cut and don't want to feel it again...I'm glad there aren't more people out there who really know how to use a knife...that makes for a really dangerous critter...

Best Defense on the Outdoor Channel is covering this right now

TexasGal wrote:The DPS Instructors told us earlier this month the shooting qualification was indeed based on what police qualify at.

Here is what TCLEOSE requires for firearms proficiency:

(c) The minimum standards for the annual firearms proficiency course of fire shall be:
(1) handguns - a minimum of 50 rounds, including at least five rounds of duty ammunition, fired at ranges from point-blank to at least 15 yards with at least
20 rounds at or beyond seven yards, including at least one timed reload;
(2) shotguns - a minimum of five rounds of duty ammunition fired at a range of at least 15 yards;
(3) precision rifles - a minimum of 20 rounds of duty ammunition fired at a range of at least 100 yards; however, an agency may, in its discretion, allow a
range of less than 100 yards but not less than 50 yards if the minimum passing percentage is raised to 90;
(4) patrol rifles - a minimum of 30 rounds of duty ammunition fired at a range of at least 50 yards, including at least one timed reload; however, an agency
may, in its discretion, allow a range of less than 50 yards but not less than 10 yards if the minimum passing percentage is raised to 90;
(5) fully automatic weapons - a minimum of 30 rounds of duty ammunition fired at ranges from seven to at least 10 yards, including at least one timed
reload, with at least 25 rounds fired in full automatic (short bursts of two or three rounds), and at least five rounds fired semi-automatic, if possible with
the weapon.
(d) The minimum passing percentage shall be 70 for each firearm.

So I see where the word "based" come into play

Mark Wilson engaged David Hernandez Arroyo at distance of 20 yards (link)... and if you are fighting inside a building, target areas are often very small requiring solid marksmanship.

While shooting within 20ft should get most of your practice, I believe CHLs should strive to EXCEED the state required standards and get consistent hits at ranges beyond 15 yards.

Personally I practice head-shots at 25 yards.

The instrucors in my CHL class talked about the "21 foot rule" also. They showed some pretty good videos as well. I would not want to be in a life threat situation at any distance closer than that. I try to train my shooting at both short (7 yards) and longer (25 yard) targets. By doing this I know my abitlities at both distance ranges and have more confidence because of it.

yogihat wrote:The instrucors in my CHL class talked about the "21 foot rule" also. They showed some pretty good videos as well. I would not want to be in a life threat situation at any distance closer than that. I try to train my shooting at both short (7 yards) and longer (25 yard) targets. By doing this I know my abitlities at both distance ranges and have more confidence because of it.

Do you practice from a draw, or while moving, or with the target moving, or one handed, or while sitting or kneeling, or from inside your car, or while carrying your groceries?
Not picking on you, but trying to make a point about square range practice. It's a good start, but get out to shoot IDPA or USPSA, and you'll really learn what you can do (and can't do) which will greatly sharpen your training.
Also, doing 'competitive' shooting adds a bit of time pressure which gives you a small adrenalin dump to boot. It's nothing like I imagine the pressure and adrenalin dump of a self defense scenario, but it's much closer than shooting at a calm, square range.
One last point about it is that people tend to also really learn more about their carry equipment. You'll find out how effective your holster is and how trust worthy your gun is.

I'm no expert, and not even one of the better shooters when I go, but I really enjoy it, and I am there to improve. Also, I dress like I do every day when I go to these competitions. I do not change my holster or my clothing in order to be more competitive, but I use this opportunity to improve so that if, God forbid, I have to defend myself, it should be much more second nature than it would be if my training was limited to shooting at a square range.

i would think most self defense situations would not be further thatn about 15 ft.

No offense taken Scott. You make a great point. I do plan on trying some IDPA matches. My problem has been that almost all of them are on weekends in my area and I work weekends. But that is an issue I am trying to work out. Can't wait to give them a try.

yogihat wrote:No offense taken Scott. You make a great point. I do plan on trying some IDPA matches. My problem has been that almost all of them are on weekends in my area and I work weekends. But that is an issue I am trying to work out. Can't wait to give them a try.

I understand. I, lucky to shoot a march once a month.

One can check out Tom Given's analyses of SD shootings at http://www.rangemaster.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. He has quite a few cases that break the 2 to 3 shot, close in stereotype.

One must study to break the internet cliches. One common error is to assume the average is what always happens as compared to being prepared for a reasonable cutoff in the more extreme ends of the critical incident distribution.