Troops obeying orders... Citizens obeying gun laws

[Oldgringo]

I watched a program called "The World At War" with my dad when I was a kid back in the '70s. The episode of the Holocaust left an intense and lasting impression on me that almost brings me to tears whenever I think about it, all these years later. Years down the road I learned what Stalin did to the Ukrainians, known as the Holodomor. And what the Ottomans did to the Armenians, and what Pol Pot did to his own people...and there are too many other examples. THAT is what happens to a disarmed people. I have NEVER put ANYTHING past any group of politicians to do whatever they CAN GET AWAY WITH...those that say, "But it can't happen here" are simply NAIVE, or they are in on it...

Did you intentionally not mention what the relatively new white settlers did to the native American Indians? It's name is genocide and it's been going on since the dawn of time.

Not arguing with the fact of it, nor am I condoning it. That said, HP's comments were in response to a thread about soldiers following orders, executing people who had willingly disarmed themselves. To the best of my knowledge, Native Americans were not legally disarmed by the government in DC. Just ask George Armstrong Culture. He was fighting an unjust war, on an unjust mission, but his opponents were armed with repeating rifles purchased on the open market which Custer's own troopers did not have access to. Sitting Bull's warriors not only outnumbered the 7th Cavalry, they were better armed by far than the Army was too.

Custer (not Culture ) got his just due. Unfortunately, he took the 7th Cavalry with him. BTW, we plan on visiting the Little Big Horn on our way north in April.

The Washita, Sand Creek, Wounded Knee massacres are just a few examples of the whites' genocidal actions against the native American Indians. Earlier than that, the Pilgrims gave them infected blankets...and the list goes on.

As for people willingly disarming themselves and soldiers following orders, is a pre-dawn raid on a sleeping village of women and children and murdering them as they try to escape much different than what the Germans and Russians did to the Jews in WW II? I think not and my thoughts on the matter remain unchanged. So there.

[Heartland Patriot]

So you post that, with no context to suggest what direction or position your taking.. .Pardon me for feeling it is a direct insult to this nations Military,,, And a great way to start a US vs Them mentality. By the way, I'm the them.....

If your going to enrage the Nations military forces preemptively, and accuse and liken us to a nation military long ago that did something horrible, Well, heck,, since you already have that mind set... I have nothing to gain by protecting you passively should the need arise, nor stop me from allowing what ever should become of you in such a situation. The contempt for your Nations military in that one post is obvious.. or maybe not,, but appearances would make it seem so.

I'm not quite sure if you were directing that at me, or elsewhere. As a recent military "retiree", I certainly do NOT believe that our military, as it stands today or for the foreseeable future, would carry out what would most certainly be UNLAWFUL ORDERS. I was merely pointing out that gun control has, in the past, led to terrible consequences for people in multiple places and times...and I would hate for that to happen here, someday. I do believe that there are those few individuals within this nation who would have very little heartburn over those sorts of actions IF they were able to get away with them. NONE of us can know what the future holds, but those of us who consider ourselves to be on the side of freedom and to be patriots, we can only stay vigilant and guard against bad consequences the best we can. I feel that opposing gun control is guarding against those POTENTIAL consequences.

[Oldgringo]

I think this thread has jumped whatever track it was on; ergo, I'm .

As you were.

[Heartland Patriot]

I watched a program called "The World At War" with my dad when I was a kid back in the '70s. The episode of the Holocaust left an intense and lasting impression on me that almost brings me to tears whenever I think about it, all these years later. Years down the road I learned what Stalin did to the Ukrainians, known as the Holodomor. And what the Ottomans did to the Armenians, and what Pol Pot did to his own people...and there are too many other examples. THAT is what happens to a disarmed people. I have NEVER put ANYTHING past any group of politicians to do whatever they CAN GET AWAY WITH...those that say, "But it can't happen here" are simply NAIVE, or they are in on it...

Did you intentionally not mention what the relatively new white settlers did to the native American Indians? It's name is genocide and it's been going on since the dawn of time.

Not arguing with the fact of it, nor am I condoning it. That said, HP's comments were in response to a thread about soldiers following orders, executing people who had willingly disarmed themselves. To the best of my knowledge, Native Americans were not legally disarmed by the government in DC. Just ask George Armstrong Culture. He was fighting an unjust war, on an unjust mission, but his opponents were armed with repeating rifles purchased on the open market which Custer's own troopers did not have access to. Sitting Bull's warriors not only outnumbered the 7th Cavalry, they were better armed by far than the Army was too.

Custer (not Culture ) got his just due. Unfortunately, he took the 7th Cavalry with him. BTW, we plan on visiting the Little Big Horn on our way north in April.

The Washita, Sand Creek, Wounded Knee massacres are just a few examples of the whites' genocidal actions against the native American Indians. Earlier than that, the Pilgrims gave them infected blankets...and the list goes on.

As for people willingly disarming themselves and soldiers following orders, is a pre-dawn raid on a sleeping village of women and children and murdering them as they try to escape much different than what the Germans and Russians did to the Jews in WW II? I think not and my thoughts on the matter remain unchanged. So there.

Now come on, tell the truth: did you get that infected blankets thing from that Howard Zinn book? I hope you can realize that contact between Europeans (and later the American settlers) would have been enough to spread diseases such as smallpox. Its REALLY contagious, and really deadly, which is why they worked so hard to eradicate it. The natives had absolutely no immunities built up until MUCH later when they had already intermingled with European descended folks and that afforded SOME immunity to their progeny. I'm not going to argue the other stuff in the least, for or against...but the blanket thing just seems like a far fetched concept when regular contact methods would do the deadly work all by themselves, with no deliberate attempt whatsoever required.

[74novaman]

Heartland patriot... There's a cool forum feature Ive taken advantage of you might enjoy.

If you put someone on a "foe list", it hides their posts unless you want to display them.

On the actual topic, there was a great article in Americas first freedom about the Warsaw ghetto uprising. With a few pistols and rifles, Polish Jews held off the Nazis for a long time.

Sure, they were eventually wiped out...but on their terms, taking a few of their oppressers with them. If more Jews had the means to resist, maybe the Nazis would have rethought their final solution.

And even if they tried anyway, if I had been an eastern European Jew with no way out I'd rather die in a fight than in a camp. Those are my thoughts anyway.

[E.Marquez]

I'm not quite sure if you were directing that at me, or elsewhere. As a recent military "retiree", I certainly do NOT believe that our military, as it stands today or for the foreseeable future, would carry out what would most certainly be UNLAWFUL ORDERS. I was merely pointing out that gun control has, in the past, led to terrible consequences for people in multiple places and times...and I would hate for that to happen here, someday. I do believe that there are those few individuals within this nation who would have very little heartburn over those sorts of actions IF they were able to get away with them. NONE of us can know what the future holds, but those of us who consider ourselves to be on the side of freedom and to be patriots, we can only stay vigilant and guard against bad consequences the best we can. I feel that opposing gun control is guarding against those POTENTIAL consequences.

Would have been nice had you posted all that along with your picture and single line of text "Troops obeying orders... Citizens obeying gun laws"

I dont disagree with your postion.. NOW that you have made one clear.

[Texas Dan Mosby]

I'm not quite sure if you were directing that at me, or elsewhere. As a recent military "retiree", I certainly do NOT believe that our military, as it stands today or for the foreseeable future, would carry out what would most certainly be UNLAWFUL ORDERS.

That's the catch.

If congress passes legislation, including unconstitutional legislation, and the POTUS acts on it, there is no doubt in my mind that our military would carry it out. Anybody that thinks otherwise is naive.

Failure to carry out said "lawful" orders would lead to removal from service, and replacement. There is ALWAYS somebody waiting in the wings willing to do WHATEVER it takes to advance their career.

[G26ster]

From Article 90 UCMJ

"i) Inference of lawfulness. An order requiring the performance of a military duty or act may be inferred to be lawful and it is disobeyed at the peril of the subordinate. This inference does not apply to a patently illegal order, such as one that directs the commission of a crime."

I would say that the soldiers in the photo were committing a crime.

[E.Marquez]

From Article 90 UCMJ

"i) Inference of lawfulness. An order requiring the performance of a military duty or act may be inferred to be lawful and it is disobeyed at the peril of the subordinate. This inference does not apply to a patently illegal order, such as one that directs the commission of a crime."

I would say that the soldiers in the photo were committing a crime.

Those Soldiers did not have the Uniform Code Of Military Justice to fall back to. Those Solders were born and raised to believe their actions were righteous. Those Soldiers would have been kneeling next to the others had they refused to perform the tasks assigned. A US Military person in my opinion, would willing fight or submit and kneel next to the now fellow prisoners, vs doing what THOSE Soldiers did back then.

I see at least one poster here disagrees with my position, so be it. It’s just an opinion on both sides. Mine just happens to be based on servicing with Said soldiers for the last 27 years, vice what I saw on CNN or FOX news. I may be wrong, I don’t profess to KNOW what will happen, just what I think would happen based on my personal experience.

[speedsix]

...reading the OP...not one thought of OUR nation's military crossed my mind...it was posted at face value as a horrible example of what happened when citizens who had surrendered their arms were attacked by the military controlled by a madman...70 years ago...and stands as a reminder that we must protect our rights to defend against ALL ENEMIES...foreign and domestic...

[speedsix]

I'm not quite sure if you were directing that at me, or elsewhere. As a recent military "retiree", I certainly do NOT believe that our military, as it stands today or for the foreseeable future, would carry out what would most certainly be UNLAWFUL ORDERS. I was merely pointing out that gun control has, in the past, led to terrible consequences for people in multiple places and times...and I would hate for that to happen here, someday. I do believe that there are those few individuals within this nation who would have very little heartburn over those sorts of actions IF they were able to get away with them. NONE of us can know what the future holds, but those of us who consider ourselves to be on the side of freedom and to be patriots, we can only stay vigilant and guard against bad consequences the best we can. I feel that opposing gun control is guarding against those POTENTIAL consequences.

Would have been nice had you posted all that along with your picture and single line of text "Troops obeying orders... Citizens obeying gun laws"

I dont disagree with your postion.. NOW that you have made one clear.

...he didn't post the OP...someone else did...

[G26ster]

Those Soldiers did not have the Uniform Code Of Military Justice to fall back to. Those Solders were born and raised to believe their actions were righteous. Those Soldiers would have been kneeling next to the others had they refused to perform the tasks assigned. A US Military person in my opinion, would willing fight or submit and kneel next to the now fellow prisoners, vs doing what THOSE Soldiers did back then.

I was simply illustrating US law. And yes, those soldiers would have joined their victims had they refused.

[speedsix]

I watched a program called "The World At War" with my dad when I was a kid back in the '70s. The episode of the Holocaust left an intense and lasting impression on me that almost brings me to tears whenever I think about it, all these years later. Years down the road I learned what Stalin did to the Ukrainians, known as the Holodomor. And what the Ottomans did to the Armenians, and what Pol Pot did to his own people...and there are too many other examples. THAT is what happens to a disarmed people. I have NEVER put ANYTHING past any group of politicians to do whatever they CAN GET AWAY WITH...those that say, "But it can't happen here" are simply NAIVE, or they are in on it...

Did you intentionally not mention what the relatively new white settlers did to the native American Indians? It's name is genocide and it's been going on since the dawn of time.

Not arguing with the fact of it, nor am I condoning it. That said, HP's comments were in response to a thread about soldiers following orders, executing people who had willingly disarmed themselves. To the best of my knowledge, Native Americans were not legally disarmed by the government in DC. Just ask George Armstrong Culture. He was fighting an unjust war, on an unjust mission, but his opponents were armed with repeating rifles purchased on the open market which Custer's own troopers did not have access to. Sitting Bull's warriors not only outnumbered the 7th Cavalry, they were better armed by far than the Army was too.

Custer (not Culture ) got his just due. Unfortunately, he took the 7th Cavalry with him. BTW, we plan on visiting the Little Big Horn on our way north in April.

The Washita, Sand Creek, Wounded Knee massacres are just a few examples of the whites' genocidal actions against the native American Indians. Earlier than that, the Pilgrims gave them infected blankets...and the list goes on.

As for people willingly disarming themselves and soldiers following orders, is a pre-dawn raid on a sleeping village of women and children and murdering them as they try to escape much different than what the Germans and Russians did to the Jews in WW II? I think not and my thoughts on the matter remain unchanged. So there.

Now come on, tell the truth: did you get that infected blankets thing from that Howard Zinn book? I hope you can realize that contact between Europeans (and later the American settlers) would have been enough to spread diseases such as smallpox. Its REALLY contagious, and really deadly, which is why they worked so hard to eradicate it. The natives had absolutely no immunities built up until MUCH later when they had already intermingled with European descended folks and that afforded SOME immunity to their progeny. I'm not going to argue the other stuff in the least, for or against...but the blanket thing just seems like a far fetched concept when regular contact methods would do the deadly work all by themselves, with no deliberate attempt whatsoever required.

...hadn't heard that story in 30 years...it's as well documented as a lot of other "history"...how it happened depends a lot on who's holding the pen...this is interesting, and, given some of the other things the "superior" white man did to the Indians, not too hard to believe... http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/am ... _jeff.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[speedsix]

From Article 90 UCMJ

"i) Inference of lawfulness. An order requiring the performance of a military duty or act may be inferred to be lawful and it is disobeyed at the peril of the subordinate. This inference does not apply to a patently illegal order, such as one that directs the commission of a crime."

I would say that the soldiers in the photo were committing a crime.

...thanks for digging that out and posting it...it may be pertinent in times not too far future...

[Texas Dan Mosby]

...reading the OP...not one thought of OUR nation's military crossed my mind...it was posted at face value as a horrible example of what happened when citizens who had surrendered their arms were attacked by the military controlled by a madman...70 years ago...and stands as a reminder that we must protect our rights to defend against ALL ENEMIES...foreign and domestic...

It SHOULD cross your mind.

We are not immune to the same issues faced by other nations in the past.

Look, I did 20 years. What I saw go down after the GWOT kicked off is why I ONLY did 20. Well, that and the election of the current POTUS. However, it's not just the Dems. The Repubs are JUST as bad.

The Soviets FORCED many "professional" Tsarist troops to serve their purpose during the communist take over by a variety of means, and others willingly joined. After they consolidated enough power, many of them were purged.

The Wehrmacht leadership was composed primarily of "professionals" prior to the NAZI's taking power, however, not all of them were members of the party. The party used the Wehrmacht to do the heavy lifting, and what they wouldn't do, the party would.

Don't think this can't happen here. We are not so special.

MOST U.S. Joe's wouldn't commit atrocities against U.S. citizens. But some would. They wouldn't have to though, as the smart tyrant would simply order them to do something "lawful", and leave the rest up to "specialists" loyal to the party. It wasn't the front line German troop doing most of the crazy stuff the NAZI's did, they had enough trouble with the allies. Party loyalists were the instruments, and they had the authority to use the "professionals" as they saw fit.

Look at our youth today. Look at our "adults". We've got kids willing to camp out in front of a bank for months complaining about "income equality", but unwilling to put the same effort into finding a paying job. We've got adults that think the government should pay for their cell phones and gender reassignment surgery, and we have government leaders willing to support them.

We are NOT the same nation we once were.

We are not immune from making the same mistakes other nations have made in the past.