What would you do scenario

[Carry-a-Kimber]

For those who said they would "drop" him--why wouldn't the cop-seeing YOU with a gun, think you were an accomplice and "drop" you?

That wouldn't even be in my mind at the time. But since you asked, I have a CHL Tiara.

[Carry-a-Kimber]

WildBill, I don't think you are allowed to say $uper Bow! without the express written consent of the NFL.

[speedsix]

...the cop's back is to him...he won't see ANYTHING till he turns around...if the guy's already raising his weapon to aim at the cop...there's no time to go for cover...there's no time to yell and hope the cop reacts(first thing he'll do is look at who's yelling, anyways)...I could just stand there and watch him shoot the cop...NOPE...I could yell at him...then his gun would swing to me...standing there yelling empty-handed...the quickest thing to do would be to draw and drop him...then either put the gun down or take it by the barrel with the off hand and hold it up to show you weren't a threat...maybe none of you have planned or trained to think this way...but the hole's still in my chest where the badge was, and GIVEN THE FACTS as the OP POSTED them...that's my answer...my "what-ifs" were settled a LONG time ago...

[SlowDave]

Interesting hypothetical. I'm thinking yelling gun at a nervous BG who is already drawing would start the shooting immediately; not sure if he'd shoot at the sound or the cop first, but seems unlikely that I'd make it to cover. Also seems VERY unlikely that the cop can hear, comprehend, think, turn around, draw, and shoot before the BG shoots him. Thinking it might be better depending on position, to quietly fade away behind some cover/concealment, draw, call 911, and wait for an opportunity of distraction of the BG. Also, if I get an opportunity after the cop is at gunpoint and drop the (obvious) BG, the cop is less likely to start shooting at me.

With this response, I risk that the BG is just going to draw and shoot the cop in the back straight away, without provocation. But if that is his plan, I probably can't stop it except by shooting him first, in which case, the 2nd shot is likely coming at me from the cop. That's in addition to the likely success rate of my initial action (not great, pulling and firing VERY QUICKLY at the guy who already has a gun up) which is likely to result in both the cop and the BG opening fire on me. To the cop, this could easily look like I have come in and started shooting at this innocent citizen (BG) and he, being a CHL is trying to protect himself. Lotta lead in the air at that point.

I dunno. Interested to read everyone's opinions.

[speedsix]

...most cops are trained to assess what's going on better than most citizens who haven't been on the job...he would be UNLIKELY to simply shoot someone who was holding a gun that was pointed away from him without warning him or realizing that he was not being threatened...it's possible but unlikely...given the odds...I'm not going to let him be back-shot...simply my personal choice...


...may I take the liberty of changing one thing in the OP's scenario...to see if it would change what any of you might do? The cop is your son...or your brother...as he IS mine...

[rdcrags]

Like most of you, I have run scenarios like this, but all slightly different, through my mind many times. I honestly can't say what I would do without more description of the scene. Distances between the 3 of us? Angles between us? It sounds as though I am approaching from the side of a straight line between the BG and the cop. To me, those things would make me react quickly one way or another. I can see me shooting, I can see me jumping and rolling on the floor in some direction while attempting to draw, or stepping behind cover if available while drawing. It all depends on those distances and angles. One thing for sure, I wouldn't stand there and think about it. I would do something fast, I'm sure, even if it were wrong.

[C-dub]

For those who said they would "drop" him--why wouldn't the cop-seeing YOU with a gun, think you were an accomplice and "drop" you?

If the officer doesn't see the BG coming he won't see me shot him either, but he'll figure out pretty quick that his life was just saved by a CHL. The other thing in my favor is that the BG is focused on the LEO and not paying attention to me.

[WildBill]

WildBill, I don't think you are allowed to say $uper Bow! without the express written consent of the NFL.

I meant the "Super Game"!
Boy I hate that commerialized legal junk.
It said that you can even describe the game without permission of the NFL>.

[srothstein]

My reaction, similar to Speedsix's is based on my law enforcement training and expecting other officers to react in a similar fashion. I would probably yell "gun" at the same time as I was drawing and shooting. And I would be moving at the same time. By yelling, I would expect the bad guy to be startled and start to turn towards me, disturbing his ooda loop. He now has to decide if i am also a cop or a threat, though that will be decided pretty quickly as he sees my gun coming up. This moment of change in scenario might be enough to give both me and the cop a chance to survive. But I also would expect that the cop has been trained to react tot he word gun. hearing it from me and seeing a gun come up would help orient him towards the threat behind him. He would probably react by facing the thug and drawing at the same time, thinking I must be a cop to react that way with that warning. And after the shots fired, I would be talking to the officer and making myself less threatening, either by lowering the pistol to the floor, holstering it, or raising it by the barrel as mentioned.

I don't think I could stand by and just take cover because my training has been to protect people for too many years. You react in a fight how you trained.

[Liberty]

My reaction, similar to Speedsix's is based on my law enforcement training and expecting other officers to react in a similar fashion. I would probably yell "gun" at the same time as I was drawing and shooting. And I would be moving at the same time. By yelling, I would expect the bad guy to be startled and start to turn towards me, disturbing his ooda loop. He now has to decide if i am also a cop or a threat, though that will be decided pretty quickly as he sees my gun coming up. This moment of change in scenario might be enough to give both me and the cop a chance to survive. But I also would expect that the cop has been trained to react tot he word gun. hearing it from me and seeing a gun come up would help orient him towards the threat behind him. He would probably react by facing the thug and drawing at the same time, thinking I must be a cop to react that way with that warning. And after the shots fired, I would be talking to the officer and making myself less threatening, either by lowering the pistol to the floor, holstering it, or raising it by the barrel as mentioned.

I don't think I could stand by and just take cover because my training has been to protect people for too many years. You react in a fight how you trained.

I really don't know how I would react, I'm not a cop nor received much combat training.

I hope I would yell out "gun!" to warn the officer, The BG already has his gun drawn My first reaction would be to withdraw from the scene as far as possible. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I don't owe that cop anything more than I owe the clerk behind the counter, and my wife and family mean more to me than they do and their welfare is more important to me than some cop I don't know. If the BG is distracted for a second I will draw and fire. The important thing is that the BG likely would be more interested in the cop and the clerk than he would be me. And withdrawing to back of the store might give me a tactical advantage. If he busy shooting the cop it should give me time to draw. Drawing while the BG is watching me is suicide. Dropping as close to his 6:00 might give me a chance even if it means losing a cop and maybe even the clerk. What is more important than drawing, is not being between a drawn gun and target while trying to pull a concealed gun out of my holster.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I intend to protect my life and well being. I have no interest in being a hero for someone who probably has better life insurance and the 100 club than I do. I got my CHL to protect myself and those who I care about, not strangers.

[kjolly]

I hope I would yell out "gun!" to warn the officer, The BG already has his gun drawn My first reaction would be to withdraw from the scene as far as possible. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I don't owe that cop anything more than I owe the clerk behind the counter, and my wife and family mean more to me than they do and their welfare is more important to me than some cop I don't know. If the BG is distracted for a second I will draw and fire. The important thing is that the BG likely would be more interested in the cop and the clerk than he would be me. And withdrawing to back of the store might give me a tactical advantage. If he busy shooting the cop it should give me time to draw. Drawing while the BG is watching me is suicide. Dropping as close to his 6:00 might give me a chance even if it means losing a cop and maybe even the clerk. What is more important than drawing, is not being between a drawn gun and target while trying to pull a concealed gun out of my holster.

[Oldgringo]

Shoot the BG.

...a lot.

[magillapd]

Great ideas and thoughts, just like I thought.

I agree with those who said to yell "Gun" I think that most officers will, at their basic training level react to that word. I was picturing myself directly behind the officer waiting to check out. I have thought about several things, one being if the BG was actually already raising the gun, I thought about pulling the officer back and behind me, and drawing at the same time. But that could cause a different reaction from the officer, on that to him/her says someone is trying to tackle me, gotta stop that.

I would yell gun and fall back to cover if possible, while drawing. I do not want to see any officer killed but the officer has an advantage that I don't have, and that's wearing a bullet proof vest. If the officer was not paying attention, that is his fault, not mine. I will instantly shout "GUN" like it was said before, giving that officer a chance to act. Just like the Supreme court has ruled, a police officer has no duty to protect the individual, my CHL does not require me to protect the individual officer.

While this situation is almost a lose lose situation, I need to take steps to ensure that I go home to my wife. I will do what I can to attempt to stop the threat, but I can't promise it will be by taking a bullet instead of the officer. They have more training then I do and should be able to do better then I can.

I would shoot if I had a clear shot and hope that I was able to stop the BG as fast as possible.

What I would not do is just pull and shoot without saying a word. Chances are I'd still be firing at the BG when the officer turns and sees me. He/she's going to instantly go to ACTIVE SHOOTER mode and probably smoke me. Sorry, but I don't want that to happen.

This is a very bad situation to be in but it can happen.

This scenario was inspired by a trip to a local gas station where this exact thing happened, minus the BG. The officer was distracted by a very attractive clerk (yes, caught my eye as well) People did walk in the door, and the officer made no attempt to notice them. It just got me to thinking and I wanted to see what others had to say.

Please, continue the discussion, much can be learned.

[C-dub]

I do not want to see any officer killed but the officer has an advantage that I don't have, and that's wearing a bullet proof vest.

Some do and some don't. Sometimes it is easy to tell and others not so much.

My guess is that for those that will shoot, things will happen so fast that you will not shout anything. You will just shoot.

[sugar land dave]

If you want to get home to the wife and kids, don't go to the corner "convenient to rob" store, and if you absolutely have to go, then pay attention. Even if the LEO isn't watching his back, you should be if only for your own self-preservation.

As for myself, I would step away from the officer while using my pocket BUG. I can slip it out of my holster and fire it through my pocket before it clears and becomes visible. I practice shooting at that low angle so at short range I should hit. My firearm would still be concealed from the eyes of the officer and BG so hopefully the officer would see the BG as the MWAG first rather than me. Frankly that is the only chance I think I and the officer would have in your scenario. I don't think I could covertly and quickly lift my shirt and pull my full size firearm with any hope of saving either of us.

As far as not helping the LEO avoid getting shot in the back, I would at least have to try to save his day. I know that I would have a hard time living with myself if I saw it coming and didn't try.