Selecting 45 ACP defensive ammo

[A-R]

Yeah I've bought some from ammo-to-go but as good as their prices are compared to gun stores/gun shows I'm spoiled by GTs - for instance A2G wants about $25 + shipping for 20 rounds of Gold Dot 230 gr ... I can buy 50 round LEO box at GTs for same price

I might have to try A2G on the Hornady TAP +P though, just to see if my gun likes it as much as the commercial load at Academy

Would really like to try som Winchester Ranger SXT 230 +P RA45TP (read great reviews) but not too many places stock it

http://gtdist.com/ProductDetail.aspx?Pa ... EERGOLDDOT" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; their website clearly says they won't sell ammo to the general public... are you LEO or Prof. Security???

...I just called Austin...reasonable ammo's worth the effort...they said even though the website says what it says...they DO sell to the general public WALK-IN customers...and the CCI Gold Dot 230Gr. JHP NON+P sells for 29.99 per box of 50...that's stupendous...the last I bought in a gunshop over 5 years ago were $33+...she assured me that all locations will have the same prices...looks like A-R's found us a nest on the ground!!!

You answered your own question - well done

Actually, I could swear I've paid around $25 for that 230 gr 45 acp GDHP - but may be confusing it with the 9mm +P I buy there often

They're not likely to let you buy it in bulk, but I ususally pick up a box or two of the good stuff every time I'm in there and they haven't bothered me about it since back in the Obama ammo scare days.

Only ammo they seem to be particular picky about in the store is Hornady TAP (they've never let me purchase anything that says TAP on it) - but I've purchased Hornady Critical Defense there, as well as all the major Federal hollow point loads, about anything I want in .223 or .308 - and when they get in odd shipments of Winchester Ranger it's ususally OK to sell to non-LEOs (but there supply of Winchester is hit-n-miss most times).

[glbedd53]

Speer Gold Dot .45 short barrel 230gr JHP

[CC Italian]

When I had my fathers Springfield in college I always kept the 230 grain golden sabers in it. They expanded in water jugs and functioned flawlessly in the 4in barrel. I know there has been problems in the past with getting even the +P 230 grain rounds to expand in 3inch barrels but from what I have seen Speer has done very well with solving that problem with the 230 grain short barrel. My friend has the 200 grain +P gold dots in his Glock 21 but that is a much longer barrel and they open up every time.

I am not a fan of 185 grain but when you look at its sectional density it is very close to a 115 grain 9mm but in .45 caliber. That's nothing to sneeze at.

Here are some various .45acp loads with different barrel lengths for reference.

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/inde ... silvertip/

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/inde ... den-saber/

There are several others including the home defense remington which uses the 230 grain golden saber on this site. Take a look.

[TLE2]

I'll second (or third or fourth) the Hornady vote.

As for the +P, my Kimber tries to eat my hand when I shoot a box of +P. Not so with non-P rounds.

Probably my fault, but I still bleed.

[speedsix]

...is your Kimber airweight or all steel? Pachmayr makes some great rubber grips that wrap the frame and make it more comfortable...

[APynckel]

...AndyC, I've never been interested in the lighter bullets for a .45...I figure the slower the velocity, the more beneficial the extra weight is...is that scientifically correct or just my hard head???

Kinetic energy: (.5)*m*V^2

Velocity has a higher contribution (note the squared) to kinetic energy than mass. So, a faster moving bullet should have more energy than a heavier round. Now, whether or not there is enough expansion upon impact to transfer all that energy to the target within acceptable penetration would be down to ballistic R&D.

As for the topic at hand, I currently carry 230 Speer Gold Dot's, and I have a 25 pack of Federal Hydra Shok, but I intend to grab up a 230 +P box of Winchester Ranger T.

[APynckel]

transfer all that energy to the target

Energy transfer is a MYTH; let's not even go there.

Huh? How is energy transfer a myth? To slow down a bullet, that energy must be dissipated somewhere somehow. The larger the cross sectional area, the faster it will slow down (friction).

Why do you think bullets expand? Because the force on the nose, coupled to the friction on the "leaves" unwraps it.

[speedsix]

...never took physics, but I know that here locally, a man took a .45ACP Hydroshock Federal 230-gr. dead center of the chest...walked out and sat in the police car waiting for the ambulance...shot from across a living room...so much for wonderbullets...I'm thinking the beauty of a hollowpoint isn't in how hard it hits, but in how much tearing and ripping it does to make bleeding faster...I'd like to know a lot more about it...

[A-R]

transfer all that energy to the target

Energy transfer is a MYTH; let's not even go there.

Huh? How is energy transfer a myth? To slow down a bullet, that energy must be dissipated somewhere somehow. The larger the cross sectional area, the faster it will slow down (friction).

Why do you think bullets expand? Because the force on the nose, coupled to the friction on the "leaves" unwraps it.

Was actually just doing some reading on this yesterday, refreshing my memory of the findings of the FBI ballistics testing following the 1986 Miami Shootout

In a nutshell, "energy transfer" is limited by the "equal and opposite reaction" theory - if the bullet could transfer enough energy to cause significant trauma to the target, then the recoil would be enough to cause equal trauma to the shooter - basically if the bullet hitting the man knocks the man down, then the recoil from the gun that fired it would knock the shooter down.

In PDF form: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In HTML form: http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From:

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK
FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT
FBI ACADEMY
QUANTICO, VIRGINIA
July 14, 1989

its interpretation are based are themselves based on myths such as knock-down power, energy transfer, hydrostatic shock, or the temporary cavity methodology of flawed work

Psychological factors such as energy deposit, momentum transfer, size of temporary cavity or calculations such as the RII are irrelevant or erroneous. The impact of the bullet upon the body is no more than the recoil of the weapon. The ratio of bullet mass to target mass is too extreme.

The often referred to "knock-down power" implies the ability of a bullet to move its target. This is nothing more than momentum of the bullet. It is the transfer of momentum that will cause a target to move in response to the blow received. "Isaac Newton proved this to be the case mathematically in the 17th Century, and Benjamin Robins verified it experimentally through the invention and use of the ballistic pendulum to determine muzzle velocity by measurement of the pendulum motion."29

Goddard amply proves the fallacy of "knock-down power" by calculating the heights (and resultant velocities) from which a one pound weight and a ten pound weight must be dropped to equal the momentum of 9mm and .45ACP projectiles at muzzle velocities, respectively. The results are revealing. In order to equal the impact of a 9mm bullet at its muzzle velocity, a one pound weight must be dropped from a height of 5.96 feet, achieving a velocity of 19.6 fps. To equal the impact of a .45ACP bullet, the one pound weight needs a velocity of 27.1 fps and must be dropped from a height of 11.4 feet. A ten pound weight equals the impact of a 9mm bullet when dropped from a height of 0.72 inches (velocity attained is 1.96 fps), and equals the impact of a .45 when dropped from 1.37 inches (achieving a velocity of 2.71 fps).30

A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down. This is simple physics, and has been known for hundreds of years.31 The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.32 Tissue damage is the only physical link to incapacitation within the desired time frame, i.e., instantaneously.

[speedsix]

...so to a good ole boy who graduated HS with General Science...stopping power=amount of physical damage done, which causes shock and bleeding or breaking down of the supporting bone structure...right?

[A-R]

...so to a good ole boy who graduated HS with General Science...stopping power=amount of physical damage done, which causes shock and bleeding or breaking down of the supporting bone structure...right?

From a suburban slacker kid who grew up into an internet-guided (?) self-taught jack of many trades & master of none (and who's post high school scientific schooling consisted of college level geology and statistical analysis - with most physics learned/retained from books about baseball), I think you're on the right track (based on my reading/limited understanding of the FBI Report)

Whether a living target STOPS and how quickly he STOPS seems to have more to do with physiology/biology AND/OR psychology, than physics. Basically make the bad guy's major organs stop functioning and HE stops functioning. Short of this you're relying on the bad guy's own psychological limits (which as we all know may be heavily altered by mind-altering drugs) to make him STOP because he realizes "Oh poop, I've been shot, guess I should lay down and bleed now." If he can't or won't realize this, then you have to wait for his body to "turn off" as it were.

[speedsix]

...now that makes sense...thanks...

[APynckel]

Oh, I wasn't inferring that "stopping power" actually existed, if that's what you meant.

I was simply talking about the bullet slowing down in the target and causing permanent cavity damage in its wake (cutting its way through organs with the expanded jacket). That's "energy transfer". I'm a mechanical engineer (work for Peterbilt atm) graduate, so physics is my strong point.

No, a bullet that weighs .0575 lbs (230gr) is NOT going to "stop" a ~175-200 lb person (that's .02875% relative mass). That's like saying if I run at a standing train, that the train will rebound. The energy will be transferred, the metal on the front of the train will warm up (infinitesimally), but no other physical "hollywood" impact would be seen on the train's part.

What you need to strive for, is for the bullet to come to a complete stop inside the target, serrating as much vital organ and tissue in its wake. Maximum circumferance (and radial surface area) of the projectile will accomplish this.