What do you say about signs?

[bayouhazard]

I am not an instructor and I don't think instructors should "preach" about anything except for gun safety and knowing the relavent laws about deadly force.

Instructors should teach the law and other required subjects.

Preaching about noncompliant signs is up there with religious or political commentary. Unless your students know the law well enough to explain it to you, can demnstrate safe gunhandling, can roleplay successful nonviolent dispute resolution with each other, and all shoot at least 90% then there's on topic material you can teach better instead of preaching or telling war stories that aren't related to CHL or try to sell them legal services or other stuff outside the required subjects.

[sjfcontrol]

I'm not exactly sure what the definition of "preaching" about non-compliant signs is, but certainly a discussion regarding what signs are and aren't compliant, and the possible ramifications of ignoring either is relevant to a CHL class.

[bayouhazard]

I'm not exactly sure what the definition of "preaching" about non-compliant signs is, but certainly a discussion regarding what signs are and aren't compliant, and the possible ramifications of ignoring either is relevant to a CHL class.

Preaching would include encouraging students to boycott stores, or any other personal opinion that has no basis in the law, like proclaiming moral (not legal) judgement on protecting property, sheepdog/batman comments pro/con, etc.

Unless students are experts in the required subjects, stay on topic.

[sjfcontrol]

I'm not exactly sure what the definition of "preaching" about non-compliant signs is, but certainly a discussion regarding what signs are and aren't compliant, and the possible ramifications of ignoring either is relevant to a CHL class.

Preaching would include encouraging students to boycott stores, or any other personal opinion that has no basis in the law, like proclaiming moral (not legal) judgement on protecting property, sheepdog/batman comments pro/con, etc.

Unless students are experts in the required subjects, stay on topic.

You are free to run your own classes as you see fit.

[jmra]

The instructor I picked for my first class was selected based on this statement in his advertising;
"no opinions, just the law". And the law is exactly what we got. I think I got very lucky.

To be perfectly honest I really don't care what your opinion is because ultimately your opinion doesn't count for squat. Instructors, unfortunately, are looked at by many students as an authority on the subject. From what I have seen and read on this forum and first hand accounts from fellow CHL holders, nothing could be further from the truth.

I recently spoke to an "instructor" who had completed his course in Austin just a few weeks before our conversation. I spent the majority of the day correcting his misconceptions about CHL by going through the book with him page by page. I was disjusted that this individual would now be authorized to "teach" others.

I know there are a lot of great instructors out there like the one I used who provide students educated answers based solely on the law and nothing but the law. Do us and the CHL community as a whole a favor and be one of those great instructors.

[speedsix]

...about signs??? How 'bout 1) read 'em 2) compare 'em to what the law says 3)keep quiet 4)if they match the law...obey 'em...if not, 3) applies...

...oh, and, spend your money where you hootin' well please!!!

[sjfcontrol]

The instructor I picked for my first class was selected based on this statement in his advertising;
"no opinions, just the law". And the law is exactly what we got. I think I got very lucky.

To be perfectly honest I really don't care what your opinion is because ultimately your opinion doesn't count for squat. Instructors, unfortunately, are looked at by many students as an authority on the subject. From what I have seen and read on this forum and first hand accounts from fellow CHL holders, nothing could be further from the truth.

I recently spoke to an "instructor" who had completed his course in Austin just a few weeks before our conversation. I spent the majority of the day correcting his misconceptions about CHL by going through the book with him page by page. I was disjusted that this individual would now be authorized to "teach" others.

I know there are a lot of great instructors out there like the one I used who provide students educated answers based solely on the law and nothing but the law. Do us and the CHL community as a whole a favor and be one of those great instructors.

Was this directed at me?

My main objection to bayouhazard's response above was the command to "stay on topic". The required topics are...

(1) the laws that relate to weapons and to the use of
deadly force;
(2) handgun use, proficiency, and safety;
(3) nonviolent dispute resolution; and
(4) proper storage practices for handguns with an
emphasis on storage practices that eliminate the possibility of
accidental injury to a child.

Part of #1 would be a discussion of signs, as they apply to PC30.06. And pursuant to those discussions it would be appropriate to discuss the difference between "enforceable" signage and "non-enforcible" signage, and also what might happen under various situations for ignoring each. As far as I'm concerned, that IS staying on topic.

Personally, I believe that any discussions regarding the sale of items (holsters, belts, videos, books, etc., or insurance products) if done at all, should be restricted to break time, or after the class has been formally dismissed.

However, that being said, the 4 categories of "topics" covers a lot of ground. I fear that too much of a "stay on topic" attitude will result in DPS determining precisely what can and cannot be discussed, right down to supplying a "standard" required presentation. If that were to happen, I believe BOTH instructors and students alike would suffer. And the next step after would be to eliminate the classroom portion in favor of an on-line canned presentation. (And like gun registration leading to confiscation, the first step in this process would be to require documentation of the amount of time spent on various topics -- so we've already started the process.)

Anyway, for that reason I tend to encourage instructors to develop their own presentations according to what they feel is important. I don't believe an occasional "war-story" is necessarily bad (though they certainly can be overdone, just like anything else). The feedback the instructor gets from his students should indicate what works and what doesn't. Also, I don't see any issues with expressing an occasional opinion, especially if asked -- provided it is clearly labeled as such.

It has been stated by Charles that 10 hours is more than enough time to cover the required subjects. So something has to fill the remainder of the time. On the other hand, I would submit 10 hours would not make ANYBODY an "expert" on the subject. That takes research and study of material available at sites such as this one.

[Art S]

Well, I obviously opened a bigger can of worms than I wanted to.
I do my best to put on a good class. I cover all the requirements, I do my best to stay up on laws, I do what I can to understand the law, I try to keep it interesting and I look for answers to questions asked me that I don’t have clear answers for.
This is why this thread started, I teach signs (what’s legal, what’s not, little bit of IMO) students asked me what if. So I ask LEO at bank. I knew his answer was not correct so, I asked you guys.
I know don’t ask/don’t tell, I know legal and not, I know my opinion and I know concealed means concealed but, what if. What if the wind blows your shirt open or your reaching for something on the top shelf or any other reason for that brief moment you’re not concealed in a place that has a non-legal sign and calls PD instead of asking you to leave and you get that LEO that says if they post a sign you can’t carry. What do you tell them about that?
Thanks again for the in-put. My class is ever changing and hopefully your experiences will help me build a better/great class because I agree with "sjfcontrol" we don't want a class in a can from the state.
Hopefully I’ll meet some of you at the Instructor conference in April.

[smoothoperator]

If the instructor goes off the reservation, you can send an email to DPS describing your complaint. They have people who are paid to audit classes and make sure instructors follow the law too, so help DPS by pointing the auditors in the right direction.