TexasCHLforum.com

philip964 wrote:

JJVP wrote:

According to company policy, a copy of which was posted online with Utah news stories, employees should apprehend shoplifters, but they may not use force to defend themselves except as needed to get out of the situation.

That has to be the most insane company policy I have ever seen. If they are required to apprehend shoplifters, then they should be allowed to defend themselves. Otherwise, don't require employees to apprehend shoplifters.

I have been told by a Walmart employee that they are not to apprehend shoplifters once they are outside. And I think security is the only ones who are to approach shoplifters inside.

It may be a case of what is supposed to happen vs what they actually do..however, two cases I personally know of and one in the news: The two I know of were both similar at two different stores. One was a 13 yo girl WITH her mother. The girl was grabbed by the arm (with her mother beside her, never asked her, just grabbed the girl) at the door by the door greeter and asked if she was hiding anything, as she had a loose shirt and for some reeason he thought she might be shoplifting something. The mother demanded the manager and all he did was apologize. The other was a preacher friend of mine who was out the door, and grabbed by an employee by the arm and asked for a reciept after the alarm went off. My firend told them "I am not required to show you a reciept. Your employee should learn to do a better job scanning. And if you ever lay a hand on me again, you had better be prepared to lose it." He is retired Navy and law enforcement by the way. He did not have a CHL. If anyone grabs me, my first reaction is to shove them away and draw my gun. They need to be trained to NEVER do that to a anyone. The other that was in the news was a cart pusher who heard the security yelling at a fleeing shoplifter...he ran after her and jumped on the hood of her car until it crashed in the parking lot. That was indeed dangerous and I could see firing someone for that one....although it sounded like Walmart was praising them.

BTW...the situation with the 13 yo girl happened about 5 yrs ago, and the incident with my preacher friend was this year.

Astro99 wrote:Ps. No one is going to come up behind u and just attack you it does not work that way. If they don't show u a badge I could understand.They have to show a badge. We dont stop people unless less were 100%. Period.

Yeah well...as I said look at my post above. Difference in what is supposed to happen vs what actually does perhaps....

...WalMart has deep pockets...either they can train their employees to act in a legal manner...or write checks when they don't...

wgoforth wrote:

Astro99 wrote:Ps. No one is going to come up behind u and just attack you it does not work that way. If they don't show u a badge I could understand.They have to show a badge. We dont stop people unless less were 100%. Period.

Yeah well...as I said look at my post above. Difference in what is supposed to happen vs what actually does....

Bingo.!

Many moons ago, after school, I worked in a grocery store.

Our manager advised that customers could place food or merchandise anywhere on their body or purse or where ever without the act being considered actual shoplifting. Not until they LEFT THE STORE without paying could anything be done about it.

We were told by the manager, if we saw what appeared to be shoplifting to discreetly notify him. He would wait until the shoplifter got outside before doing anything.

Our manager would follow the shoplifter and once outside use words to the effect that he (the shoplifter) needed to come back inside and pay for the merchandise. No scolding, no laying on of hands, just a simple statement of fact - in essence, you Mr. Shoplifter - you are caught.

Perhaps because it was in the early sixties, his system never failed. Shoplifters didn't overreact with loud denial or profanity. They shamefacedly came back in the store, paid for the item or items and left never to return.

(If I recall correctly, the policy of waiting until the shoplifter left the store was to prevent customer lawsuits brought about by false accusation)

Astro99 wrote:Ps. No one is going to come up behind u and just attack you it does not work that way. If they don't show u a badge I could understand.They have to show a badge. We dont stop people unless less were 100%. Period.

It might just be me, but I'm wondering what kind of badge you have?

C-dub wrote:

Astro99 wrote:Ps. No one is going to come up behind u and just attack you it does not work that way. If they don't show u a badge I could understand.They have to show a badge. We dont stop people unless less were 100%. Period.

It might just be me, but I'm wondering what kind of badge you have?

Don't we all have ourCHL badges?

...you would have to shake that can of rocks one more time, wouldn't you!!! whatever happened to "Blessed are the peacemakers?"!!!

speedsix wrote:...you would have to shake that can of rocks one more time, wouldn't you!!! whatever happened to "Blessed are the peacemakers?"!!!

"I am Quaker and I cannot curse thee or smite thee...but I can give thy child a set of drums"

...as the proud father of an excellent and highly motivated 19-year-old drummer with 7 years' experience, I thoroughly understand that!!!

philip964 wrote:I have been told by a Walmart employee that they are not to apprehend shoplifters once they are outside. And I think security is the only ones who are to approach shoplifters inside.

Technically.......there is no such thing as a shoplifter "inside" the store. A "shoplifter" cannot be convicted of a crime until they have left the store premises without paying for items they have in their possession.

That being said.......
Loss Prevention Employees have every right to stop and question anyone they actually see hiding merchandise in their clothes, etc. This then escalates into a detainment in a private area of the store while waiting for LEO's to arrive.

The LEO's then make a determination to charge or release the individual. If the person is charged, they can get a Lawyer and beat the rap by claiming they had full intention of paying for the items in their possession before leaving the store. Of course most will not Lawyer up.

Store policy sets the limits of their Loss Prevention Employees. Some follow outside and apprehend, most do not.

AEA wrote:Technically.......there is no such thing as a shoplifter "inside" the store. A "shoplifter" cannot be convicted of a crime until they have left the store premises without paying for items they have in their possession.

That being said.......
Loss Prevention Employees have every right to stop and question anyone they actually see hiding merchandise in their clothes, etc. This then escalates into a detainment in a private area of the store while waiting for LEO's to arrive.

The LEO's then make a determination to charge or release the individual. If the person is charged, they can get a Lawyer and beat the rap by claiming they had full intention of paying for the items in their possession before leaving the store. Of course most will not Lawyer up.

Store policy sets the limits of their Loss Prevention Employees. Some follow outside and apprehend, most do not.

You have to be careful when making these statements seem absolute. Texas law disagrees on some of these points. For example, Section 31.03 says the theft occurs when the person takes the property with the intent to deprive the owner. This happens when the person picks up the property. Communication of the intent may occur whent he person does something such as conceal the property or change the price sticker on it. I have made cases for shoplifitng that have held up in court and the person never left the store. It is all in articulation of the elements of the offense.

The second commonly disputed point is if the police make the arrest or if the security guard does. Our law, specifically Code of Criminal procedure Article 18.16, says that any person may make an arrest to prevent the consequences of a theft. The way I read that, the security guard makes an arrest, not a detention.

But, you are correct in a major area. Store policy makes a lot of difference. Many stores limit their loss prevention employees from making arrests, stopping people inside a store, even forcing the suspect to comply. Others allow this to happen. I don't recommend an employee taking any of these actions without being 100% sure of the law, the facts, and the company policy.

speedsix wrote:...WalMart has deep pockets...either they can train their employees to act in a legal manner...or write checks when they don't...

Walmart also has deep enough pockets to hire attorneys to fight lawsuits. They have more money than you and if they want, they can litigate until you and your lawyer give up.

...OK, I'm beaten...I'll just hobble away...NOT...

srothstein wrote:

AEA wrote:Technically.......there is no such thing as a shoplifter "inside" the store. A "shoplifter" cannot be convicted of a crime until they have left the store premises without paying for items they have in their possession.

That being said.......
Loss Prevention Employees have every right to stop and question anyone they actually see hiding merchandise in their clothes, etc. This then escalates into a detainment in a private area of the store while waiting for LEO's to arrive.

The LEO's then make a determination to charge or release the individual. If the person is charged, they can get a Lawyer and beat the rap by claiming they had full intention of paying for the items in their possession before leaving the store. Of course most will not Lawyer up.

Store policy sets the limits of their Loss Prevention Employees. Some follow outside and apprehend, most do not.

You have to be careful when making these statements seem absolute. Texas law disagrees on some of these points. For example, Section 31.03 says the theft occurs when the person takes the property with the intent to deprive the owner. This happens when the person picks up the property. Communication of the intent may occur whent he person does something such as conceal the property or change the price sticker on it. I have made cases for shoplifitng that have held up in court and the person never left the store. It is all in articulation of the elements of the offense.

The second commonly disputed point is if the police make the arrest or if the security guard does. Our law, specifically Code of Criminal procedure Article 18.16, says that any person may make an arrest to prevent the consequences of a theft. The way I read that, the security guard makes an arrest, not a detention.

But, you are correct in a major area. Store policy makes a lot of difference. Many stores limit their loss prevention employees from making arrests, stopping people inside a store, even forcing the suspect to comply. Others allow this to happen. I don't recommend an employee taking any of these actions without being 100% sure of the law, the facts, and the company policy.

Thanks for the clarification ...esp on the Texas law aspect.