Ethanol in your Gas: Lousy Gas Mileage?

[puma guy]

On older cars the rubber seals, o-rings, and hoses are subject to more rapid deterioration.
Fuel mileage decreases are common. There's simply less energy in burning ethanol.
Don't let any gas sit for more than 8 weeks. It will spoil.
Also drain your yard equipment in the off season (if you have one). This stuff will corrode older carburetors and seize up float valves. I've seen a lot of evidence of this this Spring.
If you have a steel gas tank it seems to accelerate rust problems if you had rust to start with.
Now I expect to see some of the people from the ethanol industry jump in here and say I'm wrong. But I've seen the results. Their theories were good enough to sell it to the government but the actual practices are full of problems.

As an aircraft mechanic, I agree with your post. The per-unit energy of ethanol simply isn't as high as gasoline (which in turn isn't as high as kerosene, for instance, which is used in turbine aircraft engines). Thus, to get the same amount of work done (revolutions of your engine) you have to burn more of it. Also, seal material comparability is very important, especially since most fuels also function as solvents. Use the wrong fuel and your seals can break down, sometimes fairly rapidly. This can lead to leaks and to really small pieces of the seal material getting into places that they shouldn't be, blocking ports and binding moving parts, perhaps. And, the ethanol attracts water which will accelerate corrosion, which can then send particulates floating around your fuel system or cause other malfunctions. Newer vehicles are most likely engineered to deal with ethanol; older vehicles probably not. Not sure where the cut-off is and its probably different for the various manufacturers. I'm not a lawyer or an engineer, but I am FAA-certified...

Heartland Patriot,
Is aviation gasoline available for non-aircraft purchase? If I recall it was 104 and maybe 109 or 114 octane ???? Years ago we used it for blending with automotive gasoline after they lowered gasoline octanes. Fina made the last 93 octane that we could buy, but it's gone, too. We used the blend for older outboards and some go fast car engines. Like everything else the government involves itself in the end result is less than acceptable when all things are considered. Flourescent (CFL) bulbs for instance. Cost more, don't fit in many fixtures and are hazardous waste when their life is over (usually much, much faster than the touted life expectancy).

Not sure about purchasing it to put in a vehicle. Usually there are trucks at airports and airfields that dispense the fuel into aircraft. Also, all avgas has TEL (tetraethyl lead) in it. It would ruin a catalytic converter and lead up your cylinders and plugs. I'm sure it would burn acceptably well in really old cars and trucks, though; however, the lead levels are still higher than mogas. The standard for avgas is now 100LL (low lead, but it still has it in there). Its blue in color. And as for legality, I can't even begin to address that aspect. There are SOME airfields that have higher octane unleaded fuel for use in aircraft that are capable and certificated to burn such fuel, but I can't tell you which ones would have that.

I forgot about the TEL. We were just about out of the av gas business when I went to work in the refinery, but we had TEL for mogas until it was outlawed. The TEL tank and system cost a fortune to remove and mitigate. The blue dye tank for the av gas was around for a long time until someone messed up and put some in a premium blend tank. We had 125,000 bbls of purplish 93 premium. It took a LONG LONG LONG time to bleed it off into the normal red dyed finished tanks. We ran into similar problems (screwups) when we had to dye road diesel when LSD (low sulfur diesel) regs started.

[AggieMM]

Try this out:

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=TX

Ryan

[WildBill]

As an aircraft mechanic, I agree with your post. The per-unit energy of ethanol simply isn't as high as gasoline (which in turn isn't as high as kerosene, for instance, which is used in turbine aircraft engines). Thus, to get the same amount of work done (revolutions of your engine) you have to burn more of it.

This is a fact. You can't get something for nothing.

[puma guy]

As an aircraft mechanic, I agree with your post. The per-unit energy of ethanol simply isn't as high as gasoline (which in turn isn't as high as kerosene, for instance, which is used in turbine aircraft engines). Thus, to get the same amount of work done (revolutions of your engine) you have to burn more of it.

This is a fact. You can't get something for nothing.

But with Ethanol you can get nothing for quite a bit more!

[WildBill]

As an aircraft mechanic, I agree with your post. The per-unit energy of ethanol simply isn't as high as gasoline (which in turn isn't as high as kerosene, for instance, which is used in turbine aircraft engines). Thus, to get the same amount of work done (revolutions of your engine) you have to burn more of it.

This is a fact. You can't get something for nothing.

But with Ethanol you can get nothing for quite a bit more!

I have heard that small engines like lawn mowers get more damage for less gasoline.

[flb_78]

Ethanol attracts water. Water is bad in fuel systems. Every spring, folks are bringing in their mowers and other small engine equipment because they did not drain the fuel and run the carb dry.

Ethanol will also raise octane. An engine that has been tuned to run properly on E85 can make more power running E85 vs regular gas.

Sta-Bil and Startron make a good ethanol treatment additive to counter the negative effects of ethanol.

[WildBill]

Ethanol attracts water. Water is bad in fuel systems. Every spring, folks are bringing in their mowers and other small engine equipment because they did not drain the fuel and run the carb dry.

Ethanol will also raise octane. An engine that has been tuned to run properly on E85 can make more power running E85 vs regular gas.

Sta-Bil and Startron make a good ethanol treatment additive to counter the negative effects of ethanol.

Okay. I got it the first time.

[NordicTexan]

I disagree. Ethanol does not improve octane rating when blended with road fuel as proven by many, many industry studies. The previous Oxygenate, MTBE, did have an Octane boost associated with it, but when it was outlawed. ( simply because our government legistates with out scientific advice and chose not to enforce the existing tankage regulation) the refineries had to change up their refinery flow patterns had run the octane enhancing units (Catalytic Reformers) much harder in areas where they needed to produce reformulated gas. Basically we went from an aditive (MTBE) that the refiner made from existing hydrocarbons, to an additive that they had to buy from others, and the new product is poorer performing that the orriginal. Hence costs for the end users go up and the total cost of owner ship goes up.

MTBE is hazardous, as are a lot of hydrocarbons. Leaky tanks allowed it to get into the ground water and poison it. So rather than enforce the laws that require the tanks to be good, california outlawed MTBE. With Enviromental legislation, the rule seems to be, as goes California, so goes the country.

I do agree that a properly tuned engine will run E85 well, but thats true of any engine that is tuned for a particular fuel.

The water effects are also more pronouced in colder areas, and can be devistating on vechicles. Gas has a certain capacity for water, Ethanol has a much greater capacity for water. If you blend saturated ethanol with road fuel, the capacity for holding water is greater than gas but less than ethanol and the water drops out. When I was working in the refineries in Chicago, we had a bad batch of ethanol that got blended with gasolene. Cars from those stations only when a few miles. Huge cost in repairs, clean up and PR.

With all legislation, I wish our officials would rely on those with more of a true background of expertise, whether its refining, enviromental, or law enforcement. It seems they make laws with only sound bite information, where they really need to read the text book firsts.

[NordicTexan]

Oh, the best fuel advice I ever got was;

It doesnt matter what station you go to fill up at. They are often filling the tanker trucks at the same rack, its just the additive packages that differ. It does however matter, when you fill up. Never, ever, fill up at a station where a tanker is unloading. The tanks are low for at least one of the fuel grades and you have no way to tell which one. As they fill the ground tank, all the crap on the bottom with get agitated and mixed with the fuel. If its your favorite station, wait a day if you can and let the stuff settle and then fuel up.

the same applies to stations that have pumps with bags on them. They could be out of order due to some electrical issue but again, you have no way to tell. If its because they are out of fuel, then its likely that other grades are also low. Again, any contaminents are more likely to get sucked in to your tank when you fill from an almost empty ground tank vs an much fuller tank.

The solution to pollution is often dillution.....

[puma guy]

Oh, the best fuel advice I ever got was;

It doesnt matter what station you go to fill up at. They are often filling the tanker trucks at the same rack, its just the additive packages that differ. It does however matter, when you fill up. Never, ever, fill up at a station where a tanker is unloading. The tanks are low for at least one of the fuel grades and you have no way to tell which one. As they fill the ground tank, all the crap on the bottom with get agitated and mixed with the fuel. If its your favorite station, wait a day if you can and let the stuff settle and then fuel up.

the same applies to stations that have pumps with bags on them. They could be out of order due to some electrical issue but again, you have no way to tell. If its because they are out of fuel, then its likely that other grades are also low. Again, any contaminents are more likely to get sucked in to your tank when you fill from an almost empty ground tank vs an much fuller tank.

The solution to pollution is often dillution.....

Your friend is right. Gasoline like other fuels( Diesel/heating Oil, Jet Fuel (kerosene) is a fungible product. Refiners pump the finished products into common pipelines. Using volume meters and gravitometers the various hydrocarbon productes are diverted to storage tanks leased by various suppliers, brands and brokers. All refiners have to meet strict product specs for the product, EPA and pipeline stipulations. A 300,000 barrel batch of 87 octane gasoline pumped into a P/L designated for a particular brand most likely has been refined by a compltely different company. The terminals have additive tanks to inject for proprietary blends; detergents are an example. There are some refiners that have their own terminals and loading racks, but that doesn'talways guarantee the fuel product came from them.

[Slowplay]

So, are you saying the gas stations listed in the pure gas website not really selling gasoline without ethanol? Under EPA rules, I know you can't buy ethanol-free gas in the DFW (or other metro areas), so it's mostly moot to me.

However, there are gas stations listed for surrounding areas that claim to sell gasolie without ethanol. Has anybody tested their gasoline to see if it is ethanol free?

[NordicTexan]

Major cities (like houston and Dallas) are required to have reformulated gasoline. Basically it must include an oxygenate like ethanol so that is burns cleaner. below is a web site that has a map to those.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/gasolinef ... /areas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This web site has some .pdfs. The one labeled chapter 3 contains information on performance of fuels and oxygenates. Usually you get a little less than a 3% reduction in mileage with oxygenated fuels.

If a station is outside of the manadated areas you could buy regular gasoline. The tanker trucks that deliver gasoline to the station get their gas from loading racks at a terminal or at a refinery. Those truck may or may not be branded to the refiner. Chevron may sell gasoline to BP stations, they just change the additive package. Ethanol is generally added at this stage for reformulated gasoline, so you could get regular or E85 at the rack, it just depends on what the customer is buying.

[Keith B]

I have a Flexfuel Suburban and won't run E85 until the price drops to 75% of the price of regular gas since I lose at least 25% of my gas mileage running E85.

[Heartland Patriot]

Major cities (like houston and Dallas) are required to have reformulated gasoline. Basically it must include an oxygenate like ethanol so that is burns cleaner. below is a web site that has a map to those.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/gasolinef ... /areas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This web site has some .pdfs. The one labeled chapter 3 contains information on performance of fuels and oxygenates. Usually you get a little less than a 3% reduction in mileage with oxygenated fuels.

If a station is outside of the manadated areas you could buy regular gasoline. The tanker trucks that deliver gasoline to the station get their gas from loading racks at a terminal or at a refinery. Those truck may or may not be branded to the refiner. Chevron may sell gasoline to BP stations, they just change the additive package. Ethanol is generally added at this stage for reformulated gasoline, so you could get regular or E85 at the rack, it just depends on what the customer is buying.

Lets say that the reduction is a nice round 3%. I did some math. If I would get 25 MPG with full gasoline, multiplying that by .03 equals .75 MPG less. Subtract from 25 puts me at 24.25 MPG. Doesn't seem like much, huh? Wait...I have a 20 gallon tank...multiply that by 25 you get 500 miles. Multiply it by 24.25, you get 485 miles. Say I only use a tank a week...15 miles per tank times 52 weeks of the year is 780 less miles I got to drive due to that little 3% loss. That's equivalent to over a tank and a half MORE of fuel I have to buy to go the same amount. Now, the gas prices are fluctuating, but lets use $3.50 a gallon, we've all seen that recently, right? 30 gallons of gas times $3.50 a gallon equals $105 more I've spent in a year due to that 3%. Now, I know some folks are independently wealthy or have really high paying jobs and good for them, I have no problem with that...but I'm just a lowly mechanic with kids. I could use that $105 somewhere else, but nope, I spent it to "save the planet". How comforting...

[puma guy]

Major cities (like houston and Dallas) are required to have reformulated gasoline. Basically it must include an oxygenate like ethanol so that is burns cleaner. below is a web site that has a map to those.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/gasolinef ... /areas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This web site has some .pdfs. The one labeled chapter 3 contains information on performance of fuels and oxygenates. Usually you get a little less than a 3% reduction in mileage with oxygenated fuels.

If a station is outside of the manadated areas you could buy regular gasoline. The tanker trucks that deliver gasoline to the station get their gas from loading racks at a terminal or at a refinery. Those truck may or may not be branded to the refiner. Chevron may sell gasoline to BP stations, they just change the additive package. Ethanol is generally added at this stage for reformulated gasoline, so you could get regular or E85 at the rack, it just depends on what the customer is buying.

Ethanol replaced other oxidizing and octane enhanching constituent such as MTBE, which got a bad wrap. Just follow the money for making ethanol the choice to be appproved. MTBE was used as TEL was outlawed and while MTBE wasn't mandated by the government it was most certainly encouraged. Non-attainment area are mandated but nowadays ethanol is probably the easiest way to go for most areas as TAME and iso-octane for example are more costly by not being subsidized. Ethanol makes gasoline more volatile driving off nonpolar hydrocarbons which is curious since it's all about saving the planet. MTBE doesn't do that.