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jamjam wrote:

flb_78 wrote:It's "incidents" like this that make me want to mount a camera on my dash and record my driving automatically.

AMEN!!!

I am on the brink of doing that!!!

To the OP ... the dui hotline gets their attention and has never involved much of anything on the callers part in my wife and I's experience. We've called it a few times to great effect over questionable driving behavior. You give them a vehicle description and plate if you can and state "they ate driving erratic". The police WILL come find them and if they're road raging they just might be dui ...so you get them either way or at least inconvenience them enough to get your pound of flesh

Couldn't the text messages be evidence?

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fickman wrote:Are there any witnesses? If so, they should corroborate his story. I'd expect something that extreme would've earned more than a couple of 911 calls.

If not, on a road as big as I-35, your brother would have certainly had room to go around the truck while it was stopped or in reverse.

I'm guessing he played a role in the provocation. I have been in some completely one-sided incidents, but they are extremely rare, and proving you remained clam and had no role in the matter is hard because most people - at some point in their life - have acted like a fool on the road. If he didn't, and he was truly trapped somehow and couldn't move his car for some reason, the I hope he wins his case.

To show your firearm is to threaten the use of deadly force. If you do it, it better be justified, and you better call the police the first second you're able to do so.

I have been in a unprovoked incident when I lived in California. I lived about 40 minutes from the base I was stationed at, out in farm country, up a connecting interstate, I-505. I worked mid-shift (midnight to 0700) and went to work at about 10:30 at night or so. So, one Sunday night I left the house like normal, drove the 5 miles to the interstate, and off to the base I was headed for Monday's midshift (the first shift of the week). At some point a few minutes after getting on the main highway, this smaller sedan came flying up past me (I drove with cruise control because CHP liked to generate revenue on that highway, day and night, but it was at random), the sedan got over in front of me, and slowed down. Now, I had been doing 65 or 70, whatever it was there, with cruise. We went down to less than 55. I rode that way a couple of minutes thinking they might speed up. Didn't happen. I put on my signal, went around, drove up a little ways, and got back over, cruise back on 65. A minute later, here they came again and repeated their earlier actions. I got irritated, but tried to keep my cool. So, this time, I slowed WAY down, to about 35 hoping they would go on ahead. Nope, they realized and slowed down too. Now I was getting a little worried as I knew it was on purpose. So, I decided enough is enough, sped up and went around and mashed the pedal pretty hard for a bit, leaving them behind. After a couple of minutes, here they came again but riding on my bumper...so I got off at the next exit and let them go...and I got back on the interstate up the onramp of the overpass...they must have slowed way down because I had to stop at the bottom (well, California stop) for the country cross road but they ended up right back in front of me. Now I was REALLY worried and kind of ticked, too. My normal exit was coming up a mile or two ahead and I mashed it hard again, got off at my exit, with them chasing me. I took a bunch of farm roads to the base, and by driving WAY too fast for the little roads and not using my signals, I managed to lose them close to the base...never saw who was in the car, as they had tinted windows and it was really dark that night. Not even sure what color the car was when I thought about it later. Had no way to defend myself and the road was pretty empty except for one big-rig we passed at some point and some cars going the other way. Anyway, I told this long story to show that stuff can happen unprovoked ( I took pains to not provoke people because the USAF cares a LOT about their image to the public and if you aren't 100% in the right, they will hang you out to dry). And on a Sunday night no one was around and the cell coverage was spotty in that area. My only mental plan became "get to the base" because the gate has security forces personnel. I really wished that I had a gun that night, maybe the only time I have. Not saying I would have whipped it out and displayed it, but who knows what I would have done then.

I'm sure any cop would agree...a vehicle is a weapon that can be used with deadly force.

JP171 wrote:

fickman wrote:Are there any witnesses? If so, they should corroborate his story. I'd expect something that extreme would've earned more than a couple of 911 calls.

If not, on a road as big as I-35, your brother would have certainly had room to go around the truck while it was stopped or in reverse.

I'm guessing he played a role in the provocation. I have been in some completely one-sided incidents, but they are extremely rare, and proving you remained clam and had no role in the matter is hard because most people - at some point in their life - have acted like a fool on the road. If he didn't, and he was truly trapped somehow and couldn't move his car for some reason, the I hope he wins his case.

To show your firearm is to threaten the use of deadly force. If you do it, it better be justified, and you better call the police the first second you're able to do so.

this is incorrect, read up on it

I have.

I didn't mean that every intentional failing to conceal is equivalent to threatening deadly force. In mid-conflict, drawing your firearm, displaying it as a retort to a provocation, or aiming it. . . any of these can be interpreted as, or actually do, meet the criteria of threatening the use of deadly force.

I had a guy tailgate and harass me on the road a while back. I pulled over, he pulled up along side me. I had my gun locked an loaded but held it really really low to where he couldn't see it. We exchanged a few words and then went on our way. I'm not showing, till it's time to shoot because of an imminent danger. No matter how bad some people need to be shot. Your brother had several options to utilize before drawing and showing. We don't reach for the gun first.

fickman wrote:

JP171 wrote:

fickman wrote:Are there any witnesses? If so, they should corroborate his story. I'd expect something that extreme would've earned more than a couple of 911 calls.

If not, on a road as big as I-35, your brother would have certainly had room to go around the truck while it was stopped or in reverse.

I'm guessing he played a role in the provocation. I have been in some completely one-sided incidents, but they are extremely rare, and proving you remained clam and had no role in the matter is hard because most people - at some point in their life - have acted like a fool on the road. If he didn't, and he was truly trapped somehow and couldn't move his car for some reason, the I hope he wins his case.

To show your firearm is to threaten the use of deadly force. If you do it, it better be justified, and you better call the police the first second you're able to do so.

this is incorrect, read up on it

I have.

I didn't mean that every intentional failing to conceal is equivalent to threatening deadly force. In mid-conflict, drawing your firearm, displaying it as a retort to a provocation, or aiming it. . . any of these can be interpreted as, or actually do, meet the criteria of threatening the use of deadly force.

PC §9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

this is the law, it is significantly different in its form than your interpretation, basically it states that if you show/pull/aim your weapon you have NOT used deadly force. you are stating in a round about way that production of weapon falls under the deadly force statute and this clearly states that is incorrect. I do agree that the local Law enforcement agency needs to notified, however the actor did NOT use deadly force at any time, he only used the weapon to create the belief that he would if it was necessary and there fore used force but not deadly force, the law does not state anything about the threat of deadly force per se but only a threat to cause, so on and so forth.

jamjam wrote:No matter how crazy these guys got, he kept his cool (except for maybe a bird).

That's not keeping his cool. Bad move:

PC §42.01. DISORDERLY CONDUCT. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly:
(1) uses abusive, indecent, profane, or vulgar language in a public place, and the language by its very utterance tends to incite an immediate breach of the peace;
(2) makes an offensive gesture or display in a public place, and the gesture or display tends to incite an immediate breach of the peace...

PC §9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
...(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used...

The same text about provocation also appears in PC §9.32 (b)(2).

If your brother was honest about the one-fingered salute, or if the guys in the truck snapped a cell phone picture of it as evidence, then he was probably guilty of disorderly conduct before he displayed his firearm. That likely would have negated the protection the law affords for use of force or deadly force in self-defense should your brother have had to actually use his firearm. And it certainly doesn't help his unlawful display charge.

I won't keep hammering home that your brother should have been the first to call 911. He should have. That he displayed his firearm made a 911 call absolutely mandatory for any reasonable person.

That he was texting while driving during this event leaves me more than a little disturbed. Trust me, you do not want my full opinion on texting while driving. However, distracted driving could also come back to haunt him at his trial.

From a completely different perspective, handguns are of little use in moving vehicle confrontations...despite all the rolling shootouts we see in the movies. Typical defensive handgun rounds just aren't powerful enough to offer effective penetration through most cars' bodies. If they strike perfectly so that they hit at a 90-degree angle and don't touch any additional metal in support struts, lock mechanisms, etc., a handgun round could prove effective against a vehicle's occupant. Defensive rounds are designed to expand when they meet resistance, so even a perfect 90-degree-angle shot through the least possible material will still likely see significant bullet deformation and reduce the effectiveness of the round as it passes through the body of the car.

Mind you, that said your car door is concealment, not cover. Many handgun rounds will penetrate. They may lose a lot of energy after they do so, but you still don't want to get hit by one.

Glass is even more unpredictable. Modern automobile glass is curved, meaning it's almost impossible to get a flat-on impact. If hit, the safety glass will crackle--which can be a good thing if you're trying to obscure visibility--but the round will almost certainly end up someplace it was not aimed.

Leads us to accuracy. Kinda like shooting while riding a horse was a spray-and-pray situation for our Texican ancestors, so is trying to shoot left-handed and unsighted out the driver's-side window while driving a car. Unless you pull up parallel to the other vehicle and match speed--which exposes you as much as them--you can pretty much forget about accuracy.

Oh, and shooting at the engine block? A myth. There's more and thicker metal there than anywhere else in the vehicle. Poking a coil in the radiator is only useful if you intend to outrun the chase car until it "bleeds out"; just like driving your car low on radiator coolant, vehicle disability is far from instantaneous...again, despite what the movies depict.

The best defensive weapon when driving a vehicle of typical weight? The vehicle itself. It can run faster than you can, can take more hits than you can, and can even be an offensive weapon if need be.

Just MHO only. It seems your brother made several decisions that were probably poorly chosen.

You can argue or justify all you want, but your brother was wrong. I've personally read of at least a half dozen similar cases where a CHL displayed a gun as a way to threaten someone in a misguided attempt to stop an unfolding road rage incident in various gun forums over the years. They were all outraged that they were charged & convicted (and also lost their CHL).

BTW, when the other party claims they were threatened with a gun, and the police subsequently find you have a gun, that is pretty telling evidence. How would they know you had a gun unless it was shown to them? However, the cinverse is not true. Alleging they were threatening with their vehicle has no supporting evidence.

jamjam wrote:

FastCarry wrote:Hate to say it, but i dont think anything happened for him to be in fear for his life, or otherwise justify deadly force. Mistake one was pulling out his gun in the 1st place. Mistake two was not calling the police either instead, or as soon as he could. I dont think this will end up favorable.

As a CHL holder, you have a TREMENDOUS responsibility of knowing your rights, and the law as related to CHL. What would have happened if the guys in the truck were CHL's and were carrying? One guy on the phone explaining to the dispatcher that there is a guy pointing a gun at them while the other pops off a round and kills your brother.. maybe another way of thinking about when you should really be pulling your weapon.

I'm sure any cop would agree...a vehicle is a weapon that can be used with deadly force. This is weird, but I've had not one, but two people (in one week no less), throw their car into reverse at a stop sign. One was an elderly man that felt he was too far into the intersection, the other...I don't know...he said he wanted to talk to me. The 2nd time, I was like, I cannot believe this, I see reverse lights, again, and I had a full cup of coffee, knocked it all over myself trying to throw my car into reverse, but it was too late. I was hit...again! Not a gun incident, but it all happened SO fast...and it was scary. You feel kinda helpless. So I can only imagine my brother's fear being on I-35 and seeing those reverse lights on. I definitely would not only have pulled my gun out, I would've shot at them. Maybe b/c I'm a woman and watch too much Investigation ID, but there are proven cases where men have "bumped" a woman in a car from behind to get her to pull over and get out of the car...and then she's dead. Also, I've had a brother that was murdered. So I never assume the best in regular people. We just don't know what we're dealing with. If a person is acting psycho/erratic, I will assume they are psycho. But please don't say my brother had NO fear for his life. He did. Otherwise, he wouldn't have reacted to attempted assault w/a deadly weapon (the truck). Then, and only then, did he act. I'm surprised that you said "nothing" happened for him to be in fear for his life. If CHL holders do not stick together, and just any person on the street lies and accuses a CHL holder, and people believe them, then what's the point of having a CHL? I hope you never have to deal w/any of these nutcases, liars, druggies, etc. Truly. Watch out for those reverse lights buddy...and thanks for your input. I do appreciate it, even if I disagree w/parts of it.

Please feel free to re-read that, im sure you will see the difference in what I said and what you perceived initially. If you intend on trying to disprove opinions you disagree with, im not sure the purpose of creating this thread. The law is written, unfortunately, we aren't the jurors or the judge so we can only offer opinion.

I think it will depend a whole lot on the jury and the character of the other guys and their records and the lawyers. It is not what you know, it is what you can prove. This is where a dash-cam would be invaluable. Of course a car is a lethal weapon, but it would have been so much better for your brother if he had called the cops first. He needs a good lawyer. He will need to tell his story and hope it is believable.

If somehow he gets away from this with his legal rights in tact, if someone is being stupid on the highway do not engage with them, get off the road and call the cops. Do not give someone the ability to do that to you.

If nothing else, let this be a lesson to all.

If you draw, show, or threaten another with your weapon, call 911 immediately!

The first caller gets to be the "victim". Don't let your attacker be the first caller!

Crossfire wrote:If nothing else, let this be a lesson to all.

If you draw, show, or threaten another with your weapon, call 911 immediately!

The first caller gets to be the "victim". Don't let your attacker be the first caller!

I do remember that from the class...

Save all those texts messages and get a lawyer. Yes the texts were full of wrong advice, but it shows some of the timing of events prior to the actual arrest. Save them. They may save his butt.