TexasCHLforum.com

WildBill wrote:

sjfcontrol wrote:

barstoolguru wrote:From what I hear they ban steel bullets and bullets with steel inserts because it damages the backstop but I never heard of them banning JHP

I think they would like to avoid steel-core bullets because they can cause sparks.
REMEMBER -- Only YOU can prevent gun-range fires! -- Smokey Bear

I think indoor ranges are more concerned about damage to the backstop rather than fires. JHP tear up target stands and lumber more than FMJ.

I was at an outdoor range once when a fire started on the 100 yard line. I don't know if it was steel core or tracer or ? By the time we could get a cease fire and sprint to the targets we had a 10-15 ft diameter grass fire.

Do you know of any 'modern' INDOOR range that has lumber anywhere near where bullets go? Pretty archaic. Shredded rubber backstops (the most cost-effective) cannot be damaged by hollow-point bullets. Neither can total-containment or even ancient smash-plate backstops. Target carriers are pretty much armored as well. (With exception of the type that use exposed cabling, which would be just as vulnerable to FMJ. But fires are ALWAYS a concern.

I don't know what would cause a spark on an outdoor range unless a round hit a rock or something (assuming no tracers). With indoor ranges you can get a pretty good spark by bouncing a steel-core bullet off the concrete floor. Combine the spark with green powder (possible maintenance problem), and paper chaff from shot-up targets and you have a pretty good starter. Throw in the rubber from the backstop (even treated) and you could lose the building.

The fire that I heard about was at the range I shot at with my daughter the other day -- Spring Guns and Ammo. Apparently, some intellectually challenged person came in and discharged some incendiary rounds, which led to the fire. There is now a BIG sign on the door about armor piercing and incendiary rounds.

sjfcontrol wrote:Do you know of any 'modern' INDOOR range that has lumber anywhere near where bullets go? Pretty archaic.

I don't know what would cause a spark on an outdoor range unless a round hit a rock or something (assuming no tracers). With indoor ranges you can get a pretty good spark by bouncing a steel-core bullet off the concrete floor.

I haven't shot in a modern indoor range.

There are plenty of rocks and dry grass at the outdoor range where I used to shoot.

Middle Age Russ wrote:The one about a fire that I heard about was at the range I shot at with my daughter the other day -- Spring Guns and Ammo. Apparently, some intellectually challenged person came in and discharged some incendiary rounds, which led to the fire. There is now a BIG sign on the door about armor piercing and incendiary rounds.

Try attending the NRA range development and operations conference. There are multiple stories, and even some security videos of indoor range fires. Along with some "after" stills. Yes, incendiary rounds can be a problem -- they can also be a convienent excuse to cover inadequate maintenance.

From my POV, the most impressive was a range that was attempting proper maintenance, but was unaware that green powder was being forced into the concrete slab expansion joints every time they cleaned. Eventually a spark set it off, and there was enough energy in the powder to actually dislodge the concrete floor sections. After they rebuilt, they were sure to seal the concrete joints. Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing?

What is green powder? Unburned powder?

WildBill wrote:What is green powder? Unburned powder?

Yes.

Here is a report from the CDC talking about lead exposure in indoor firing ranges. See Page 8 for sources of airborne lead. The report is from 1975 so some other studies may have been performed since that time.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/76-130/pdfs/76-130.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Was there ever an official explanation how the Top Gun fire started 3 years ago?

WildBill wrote:Here is a report from the CDC talking about lead exposure in indoor firing ranges. See Page 8 for sources of airborne lead. The report is from 1975 so some other studies may have been performed since that time.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/76-130/pdfs/76-130.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Did they have HEPA filters in 1975?

From my POV, the most impressive was a range that was attempting proper maintenance, but was unaware that green powder was being forced into the concrete slab expansion joints every time they cleaned. Eventually a spark set it off, and there was enough energy in the powder to actually dislodge the concrete floor sections. After they rebuilt, they were sure to seal the concrete joints

I'm glad they learned from the experience. Its been said that Experience is a tough teacher -- she gives the test first. She certainly paid a visit to the range owners in this case.

WildBill wrote:Here is a report from the CDC talking about lead exposure in indoor firing ranges. See Page 8 for sources of airborne lead. The report is from 1975 so some other studies may have been performed since that time.

Range design and ventilation standards have improved immensely in the last 35 years. Just sayin' . . .

Jumping Frog wrote:

WildBill wrote:Here is a report from the CDC talking about lead exposure in indoor firing ranges. See Page 8 for sources of airborne lead. The report is from 1975 so some other studies may have been performed since that time.

Range design and ventilation standards have improved immensely in the last 35 years. Just sayin' . . .

Yes, just reading the beginning of that report is eye opening. A balanced air-handling system with proper filtration is essential. And acoustic paneling has come far, too.

sjfcontrol wrote:

Jumping Frog wrote:

WildBill wrote:Here is a report from the CDC talking about lead exposure in indoor firing ranges. See Page 8 for sources of airborne lead. The report is from 1975 so some other studies may have been performed since that time.

Range design and ventilation standards have improved immensely in the last 35 years. Just sayin' . . .

Yes, just reading the beginning of that report is eye opening. A balanced air-handling system with proper filtration is essential. And acoustic paneling has come far, too.

There are a couple of range design guide that I have found on-line.
I am not sure about HEPA filters. The first time I heard of them was in the 1980s, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist before then. I know that they were expensive and used for electronics and aerospace clean rooms.

Most target shooters in the 1970s fired lead bullets in their handguns, rather than jacketed or hollow point.

wow! cool discussion from a simple question!

when i go back to the range i will certainly ask why no JHPs. i know this and another range i've been to both do not like steel or lead cased ammo and always visually inspect what you bring in. i think they're mostly just checking to see if it's brass cased since i've inadvertently taken in JHPs and lead tipped 22lr once.

space cat wrote:wow! cool discussion from a simple question!

when i go back to the range i will certainly ask why no JHPs. i know this and another range i've been to both do not like steel or lead cased ammo and always visually inspect what you bring in. i think they're mostly just checking to see if it's brass cased since i've inadvertently taken in JHPs and lead tipped 22lr once.

What is interesting is that all ranges allow .22LR which is not jacketed so they are going to flatten and splatter worse that most hollow points.