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Posted: **Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:23 am**

Deltaboy wrote:It won't change until some Lawyer or someone with deep pockets get shafted on this and they find a way to hold the airlines responsible as an accessory to the crime for making you take it in a restricted area.

You would not be taking it in a "restricted area" per sa, but you might be being forced to take possession in a jurisdiction where it is illegal for you to possess, even if FOPA should protect you.

urnoodle wrote:I would declare them at the airport of origin so wouldn't the airline be responsible for the bag if I left it in their possession due to a flight delay or cancelation that was outside of my control? Otherwise I would think the airline would be an accessory to a crime because they knew a firearm was inside and they encouraged a passenger to take the bag with them.

Interesting concept, but the airline has no way of knowing your bag has a gun in it after it leaves check in, so they can't be considered an accessory.

OTOH, an interesting tactic would be to tell the airline that you cannot legally take possession of your bag in that jurisdiction because local laws prohibit possession of a firearm that was legal to possess at the origin and the destination.

Several problems incur with this tactic:

By the time you get off the plane, and find the baggage office, and find someone to talk to there; your bag has left the restricted area and is in the public baggage claim area where there is no control over it, so you may already have accessed it;

Or the airline won't take the bag back unless and until you take it to check in, leading to the problem above;

Or the airline will state that you can't declare your firearm (remember they have no legal mechanism to know that you have a gun in your bag after check in) and that you therefore must take possession of it, and they will call the police anyway because you have left your gun unattended in a public area.

In any case, the police are likely to claim that you had possession of the firearm, albeit in the bag, in violation of the law. Remember you are dealing with people who have a record here.

The very best option is legislative relief or a favorable ruling on one of the existing cases, and good luck with that considering the way NY, DC, and Chicago have reacted to previous rulings and laws.

Posted: **Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:08 pm**

I know you're probably right that it would never hold up in court but I wonder if anyone has ever tried that defense. When the airplane is 50,000 ft up, the passengers don't have choices of whether the plane is to be diverted. There should be some type of exception when bad weather or the airline diverts the plane to an airport in a gun unfriendly city. I realize that may require the passenger not to leave the secure area until he or she has informed the airline that they have luggage that contains a declared firearm. This would give the airline an opportunity to secure it. I arrived at a destination once before but my luggage didn't. I've also had luggage damaged on one trip. In both cases the airline reimbursed me. Seems to me if they aren't the least bit liable for my luggage there was no need to reimburse me. I understand that there is limited liability for luggage which does not end until the passenger takes possession. If I refuse to take possession then they must be liable until I do. IANAL but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.

Posted: **Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:29 pm**

urnoodle, to answer your travel question; if you can find a willing FFL near our destination, ship him the firearm before your trip. Pick it up when you get there and ship it back to one near home when you leave.

Safe travels friend!

Posted: **Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:05 pm**

Thanks for the advice

, I have given that some thought too. I hate to do that, the nearest FFL is about 3 hours away from my destination. I heard that a firearm can be shipped UPS or Fedex overnight express to oneself as long as it is addressed to that individual. I will be researching the laws to make sure it applies to handguns and not just long guns. If it's legal than that's the option I will take.

Posted: **Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:50 pm**

bronco78 wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:Don't come back to the airport. Hire a cab, get yourself outside of Chicago. Call the airline and change your ticket to depart out of an airport where you won't get popped for having a gun with you.
That may work,, my decision was to refuse to pick up my bag, though I was told I must... I simply said no, and I'll see you in the morning. I figured at worst,, I would loose the weapon, which is covered under my outstanding home owners policy...

Come morning I checked in and went to Huston, never took possession of, or touched my bag till I got to my destination (Killeen Texas)

Did the airport folks really bust your chops, or did they suggest that you had to take it? And was it airline or airport employees who were giving you the business?

Posted: **Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:30 am**

The Annoyed Man wrote:
bronco78 wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:Don't come back to the airport. Hire a cab, get yourself outside of Chicago. Call the airline and change your ticket to depart out of an airport where you won't get popped for having a gun with you.
That may work,, my decision was to refuse to pick up my bag, though I was told I must... I simply said no, and I'll see you in the morning. I figured at worst,, I would loose the weapon, which is covered under my outstanding home owners policy...

Come morning I checked in and went to Huston, never took possession of, or touched my bag till I got to my destination (Killeen Texas)
Did the airport folks really bust your chops, or did they suggest that you had to take it? And was it airline or airport employees who were giving you the business?

They insisted I was required to pick it up... I Insisted they could insist all they wanted.. the bag was placed in their charge in Killeen Texas,, and I would take it from them at my contracted destination.. In between transportation and security was there responsibility... I did not require anything from that checked bag. I turned and walked away..... What i had in that pelican case was insured though my home owners insurance. Worst case at that point was, I lost a few shirts, pants, underwear, a gun, holster, 3 magazines, two boxes of ammo.... But I would be making that insurance claim from the comfort of my home, vice though my lawyer while sitting in jail awaiting trial or bail.

Honestly I figured I would be stopped by TSA or Homeland Security, or local LEO before I left the airport... .. Wanting to leave your luggage at the airport is pretty suspicious in itself I admit... And I was ready to tell a TSA rep the deal.. but they did not, and my bag was waiting on me at my destination.

I think they assumed I was just a grumpy dude not wanting to haul my bag around (correct

) and likely collected it and others from the luggage pick up point and slung it back into the departure system without much of a second thought.

Posted: **Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:56 am**

urnoodle wrote:Thanks for the advice , I have given that some thought too. I hate to do that, the nearest FFL is about 3 hours away from my destination. I heard that a firearm can be shipped UPS or Fedex overnight express to oneself as long as it is addressed to that individual. I will be researching the laws to make sure it applies to handguns and not just long guns. If it's legal than that's the option I will take.

I would at least try to get all these questions answered by the airline in advance in writing. Otherwise, leave them at home or drive.

Posted: **Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:31 am**

urnoodle wrote:Thanks for the advice , I have given that some thought too. I hate to do that, the nearest FFL is about 3 hours away from my destination. I heard that a firearm can be shipped UPS or Fedex overnight express to oneself as long as it is addressed to that individual. I will be researching the laws to make sure it applies to handguns and not just long guns. If it's legal than that's the option I will take.

My understanding is any transfer of a firearm via any common carrier across state lines requires it be sent to an FFL.

FedEx policy:

Restrictions specific to FedEx SameDay (Excerpted):

2 (a): The following items are prohibited and will not be acceptable for shipment by FedEx SameDay service: Firearms.

4. Firearms. FedEx will only accept shipments of firearms when either the shipper or recipient is a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed dealer or licensed collector and is not prohibited from making such shipments by federal, state or local regulations when these conditions are met. FedEx will accept and deliver firearms between all areas served in the U.S. and Puerto Rico.

Firearms must be shipped via FedEx Priority Overnight and may not be sent C.O.D. Upon presenting the package for shipment, the shipper is required to inform FedEx that the package contains a firearm. Firearms may not be shipped in one complete piece. When tendered for shipment, the firearm must be rendered inoperable, either by removing the firing pin in the gun and disconnecting the barrel, or by some other means so the package does not contain a completely assembled, usable weapon. The outside of the package should bear no label, marking, or other written notice that a firearm is contained within. This includes the abbreviation of the name of the shipper or recipient if the name would clearly indicate that the package could contain a firearm. Firearms and ammunition may not be shipped in the same package. Ammunition is always an explosive and must be shipped as Dangerous Goods. Signature release is not available for shipments containing firearms.

The shipper and recipient are required to comply with all applicable government regulations and laws including those pertaining to labeling. The local division office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) can provide assistance with the packaging and shipment of firearms.

UPS Policy:

UPS accepts firearm shipments from UPS daily pickup accounts and through UPS Customer Counters. UPS daily pickup accounts can also ship firearms, not including handguns, through UPS Internet Shipping, On Call Air Pickup®, and One-Time Pickup. Firearms are not accepted for shipment via UPS Letter Centers, UPS SonicAir BestFlightSM service, or international service. Firearms will not be accepted when presented for shipment at a UPS Authorized Shipping Outlet or a UPS Commercial Counter.

UPS accepts handgun shipments from UPS daily pickup accounts and through UPS Customer Counters. Handguns are not accepted for shipment via UPS Letter Centers, UPS SonicAir BestFlight service, UPS Internet Shipping, UPS On Call Air Pickup, UPS One-Time Pickup, or international service. Handguns will not be accepted when presented for shipment at a UPS Authorized Shipping Outlet or a UPS Commercial Counter.

Firearm shippers shipping through a UPS Customer Counter must have a letter on record with UPS stating their status as an authorized firearm shipper.

The shipper must affix a UPS label, requesting an adult signature upon delivery, to each package containing a firearm.

Packages containing handguns must be shipped via UPS Next Day Air Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, or UPS Next Day Air Saver®¹ service.

Packages containing handguns must be segregated from other packages being tendered to UPS. Handgun shippers must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Counter clerk of any package containing a handgun.

UPS prohibits the inclusion of ammunition in packages containing firearms, including handguns.

In locations where a UPS Next Day Air service is not offered, packages containing handguns must be shipped via the most premium domestic air service available.

See also Page 5 (Item 425) of the UPS Tariff, "Firearms and Ammunition," which, new for 2003, states:
Firearms will be transported only between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers and licensed collectors… to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer for the sole purpose of repair or customizing, and the repaired firearm or a replacement firearm of the same kind or type on return from the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer to that person.²

Posted: **Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:54 pm**

jimlongley wrote:OTOH, an interesting tactic would be to tell the airline that you cannot legally take possession of your bag in that jurisdiction because local laws prohibit possession of a firearm that was legal to possess at the origin and the destination.

Several problems incur with this tactic:

By the time you get off the plane, and find the baggage office, and find someone to talk to there; your bag has left the restricted area and is in the public baggage claim area where there is no control over it, so you may already have accessed it;

What about this strategy? Notify the gate agent in writing as you step off the plane that you cannot take possession of your baggage due to the above, and notifying them of their duty to protect and safeguard your luggage until it is sent to your final destination. Use your cell phone to video yourself handing them the written notification that you took a picture of before getting off the plane. Perhaps even request law enforcement assistance?

Posted: **Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:42 pm**

Kythas wrote:
urnoodle wrote:Thanks for the advice , I have given that some thought too. I hate to do that, the nearest FFL is about 3 hours away from my destination. I heard that a firearm can be shipped UPS or Fedex overnight express to oneself as long as it is addressed to that individual. I will be researching the laws to make sure it applies to handguns and not just long guns. If it's legal than that's the option I will take.
My understanding is any transfer of a firearm via any common carrier across state lines requires it be sent to an FFL.

Transferring a firearm to another person across state lines requires a FFL, but the law does not require a FFL to ship a firearm to yourself across state lines for a hunting trip or other lawful purposes.

Posted: **Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:17 pm**

Jumping Frog wrote:
jimlongley wrote:OTOH, an interesting tactic would be to tell the airline that you cannot legally take possession of your bag in that jurisdiction because local laws prohibit possession of a firearm that was legal to possess at the origin and the destination.

Several problems incur with this tactic:

By the time you get off the plane, and find the baggage office, and find someone to talk to there; your bag has left the restricted area and is in the public baggage claim area where there is no control over it, so you may already have accessed it;
What about this strategy? Notify the gate agent in writing as you step off the plane that you cannot take possession of your baggage due to the above, and notifying them of their duty to protect and safeguard your luggage until it is sent to your final destination. Use your cell phone to video yourself handing them the written notification that you took a picture of before getting off the plane. Perhaps even request law enforcement assistance?

Of course I could be wrong, but I doubt that any LEO would agree to be a "witness".

Posted: **Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:00 pm**

Jumping Frog wrote:
jimlongley wrote:OTOH, an interesting tactic would be to tell the airline that you cannot legally take possession of your bag in that jurisdiction because local laws prohibit possession of a firearm that was legal to possess at the origin and the destination.

Several problems incur with this tactic:

By the time you get off the plane, and find the baggage office, and find someone to talk to there; your bag has left the restricted area and is in the public baggage claim area where there is no control over it, so you may already have accessed it;
What about this strategy? Notify the gate agent in writing as you step off the plane that you cannot take possession of your baggage due to the above, and notifying them of their duty to protect and safeguard your luggage until it is sent to your final destination. Use your cell phone to video yourself handing them the written notification that you took a picture of before getting off the plane. Perhaps even request law enforcement assistance?

Your bag is probably off the plane and on its way into the unsecured side of the airport by that time.

Posted: **Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:25 pm**

jimlongley wrote:
Jumping Frog wrote:
jimlongley wrote:OTOH, an interesting tactic would be to tell the airline that you cannot legally take possession of your bag in that jurisdiction because local laws prohibit possession of a firearm that was legal to possess at the origin and the destination.

Several problems incur with this tactic:

By the time you get off the plane, and find the baggage office, and find someone to talk to there; your bag has left the restricted area and is in the public baggage claim area where there is no control over it, so you may already have accessed it;
What about this strategy? Notify the gate agent in writing as you step off the plane that you cannot take possession of your baggage due to the above, and notifying them of their duty to protect and safeguard your luggage until it is sent to your final destination. Use your cell phone to video yourself handing them the written notification that you took a picture of before getting off the plane. Perhaps even request law enforcement assistance?
Your bag is probably off the plane and on its way into the unsecured side of the airport by that time.

You can always explain your predicament to a flight attendant before you land, and ask them to make sure that your bag does NOT get sent to the baggage claim area.

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