Caution in criticizing folks gun choice

[Keith B]

The woman with arthritis that can't hold a gun... it might be safer for the rest of the public for her not to carry! Chances are it might get taken away from her and used on her or in another crime.

This is an awfully broad statement to cover all situations. Home protection, car jackings, etc. would be a perfect example of where they could have enough time to obtain their weapon and fend off an attacker.

...... and to the woman with 20 lbs of junk in her purse and is worried about an extra 8 ozs ; get real… empty some of the junk out. Chances are a small gun will be lost any way in between the makeup and the female hygiene products

If the person carrying off-body is doing it right, they have a separate compartment in their purse or bag. You would never want a handgun laying loose in a purse amongst other items.

I for one have changed a lot of things I do because of boards like this and “criticism” because if 10 people are telling you something isn’t right then you would be a fool not to listen’

Constructive criticism is one thing; belligerence, being a know-it-all and telling people that You know what is best for them' is not a good way to make friends and influence people.

A tree that doesn’t flex will break in the winds of change

I agree to an extent you will need to adjust your habits when you start carrying, but that doesn't mean you can't also look for options that will mean you have very little adjustment to do. Most people don't need to go buy a whole new wardrobe just so they can carry.

[snatchel]

The woman with arthritis that can't hold a gun... it might be safer for the rest of the public for her not to carry! Chances are it might get taken away from her and used on her or in another crime.

Disagree, big time.

She has every right to carry, and I would encourage her to do so. Having a gun and not being able to fire when the time comes beats not having a gun to begin with. At least she has a fighting chance.

As far as retention goes, every one of us is vulnerable to that. Unless you have some retention training, it is extremely easy to disarm you. This goes for the 80 year old woman with arthritic hands and the 21 year old fit linebacker.

"Chances are it might get taken away from her and used on her or in another crime"
-If a criminal wants to use a gun in a crime, it makes no difference where the gun came from--be it legally store bought or stolen/taken from someone else. The end result would be the same, with or without the 80 year old arthritic woman.

[The Annoyed Man]

To each their own but I rather have a little bigger gun, a little more weight then worry about 5-10 ounces and a little bigger footprint but that is just me! If it works for YOU carry it!

That is especially true for women who are going to carry off-body. A factor for them is that extra 5-10 ounces is no big deal in a purse or bag that already weighs 20 lbs

And, more importantly, I emphasize to everyone I coach or teach to shoot or that get their CHL, that they need to be fairly proficient with their carry weapons. They don't need to be an Ed McGivern or Jerry Miculek, but they need to practice with it so they can at least hit the target at reasonable distances so that if they DO get into a defensive situation, the adrenalin and other factors that play into it will not compromise their shot placement as badly. If a person doesn't like the gun, or it is uncomfortable to shoot, then they will NOT practice with it and in turn it may fail them when they need it most.

I have two things to add:

1. If you're not carrying a 5" steel framed 1911, you're a wussie.

2. I'm an idiot.

(Don't forget #3.... I rarely ever carry my 5" steel framed 1911. )

Now that the pleasantries are out of the way...... I too have advised different guns for different people. Almost all of my students have been women, and most of them start off wanting to shoot a "small gun" because they believe, often incorrectly, that the smaller the gun, the less the recoil. After we've gotten the fundamentals of learning how to shoot a .22 out of the way and I start them on more powerful calibers, I will give them the opportunity to shoot the same caliber in more than one platform, so that they can begin to understand that the size of the gun is not directly proportional to the amount of recoil, and many have been surprised to find that, at the end of the day, their favorite gun is a .45.

That's when the hard part begins, because now that they've got an idea of what they like, I encourage them to start thinking about whether or not what they like will actually work for them. Are they planning on purse carry, or on-body carry? If on-body, are they willing to make certain fashion concessions to accomodate the gun they like? If not, then what is their next favorite gun that will work within the parameters of their fashion choices? If purse carry, how big is their purse? Is it a purse designed for concealed carry, or just a regular purse? How big of a gun will their purse accommodate? Finally, do they know where to go find holsters and purses?

Now, all of that said, what difference in recoil impulse there is between a 8.3 oz P3AT .380 and a 14 oz Kahr PM/CM9 9mm actually favors the Kahr—because the extra 6 oz of weight soaks up a lot of recoil. Both are very pocketable with a very small difference in size. I cannot imagine a place where you could conceal a P3AT, but could not conceal a PM9. For all practical purposes, they're about the same size. If it is the same size as the .380, and if it is easier to shoot than the .380, and if 9mm ammo is easier to find (and cheaper per round) tan .380, and if the 9mm hits a ton harder than the .380...........why not carry the 9mm?

[txhighlander]

I have always believed in carrying the biggest caliber that you can control and shoot well. That being said I have always been a 45 shooter, bigger is always better, but due to wrist problem is 9 mm. I can still shoot a 45 but not to the level I feel I need to maintain my shooting proficiency. Sometimes we get to caught up in the caliber wars, I don't know about you but I just don't want to get shot with any caliber. You have to be proficient with what ever you use is the bottom line.

[longtooth]

WOW, sir, my thoughts in red & the 2 post above me are really good too.

The woman with arthritis that can't hold a gun... it might be safer for the rest of the public for her not to carry! Chances are it might get taken away from her and used on her or in another crime.

I hear this "safety" issue a lot for seniors, frail, handicapped, others... They have the Constitutional Right to self defence & at least a fighting chance the same as you or I do. I train many folks in all states of physical strenght & weakness. Working w/ a lady right now that will never be able to "move & shoot" but she has the right to a fighting chance.

I will assure you sir no matter how much training you or I have (& I have been under SEVERAL really good instructors) we just might have one taken away from us too.


People get lazy or don’t explore their options. I was reading one guy said he couldn’t wear a full size gun because the handle stuck out too far. “Hey dude pull up your pants or better yet get some that fit better”. Those pants might have fit 10 years ago but not anymore and now you have a gun in the waist band; they are even tighter. Carrying a gun is a wardrobe change to accommodate the extra

Especially the "Hey dude" Yes I have needed to talk to some about change. "Dress around your gun" dont gun around your dress. I sure do it a little more politely though.

to the woman with 20 lbs of junk in her purse and is worried about an extra 8 ozs ; get real… empty some of the junk out. Chances are a small gun will be lost any way in between the makeup and the female hygiene products
That is what the gun pocket is for in ladies carry purses. Again a teaching/learning opportunity instead of a "get real" "empty some of the junk out" For a lot of folks the life changes that have to be made are more than how & where they carry. Until pointed out HOW change is better, they dont see it.

I for one have changed a lot of things I do because of boards like this and “criticism” because if 10 people are telling you something isn’t right then you would be a fool not to listen’

You show wisdom here. For those that live w/ the attitude that this is the way I dress & I am not going to chg or this is the way I HAVE to dress & cant change (job or handicap) then until they get "their" wake up call it is not going to chg but they still have the right to Pursue their happiness in the way they choose.

A tree that doesn’t flex will break in the winds of change

edit: here is a bus shooting watch as the gunman PULLS an assault rifle out of his pants, now put yourself on that bus do you think a 32 or 25 is going to do some good? Even if you pull it out 6 shots and your done and I doubt if anyone that carries a 25 or 32 will have the hindsight to have an extra mag. say it... "IT will never happen to me" and I bet those people on the bus never expected it either

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qR6HJrZUtU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Daily carry for me is a SAXD45. 2 extra mags. In the case of this video I am out armed too. When I go w/ a good friend who is a jewler occasionally on business I wear body armor too. Not every day though. It would be impossible for me to dress & carry in a mammer that you could never have an incident where I would not be out armed. You cant prepaer for everything but you can prepare for the probable incidents.

and one more thing

The caliber war will go on till the cows come home, and doubt that anyone really disagrees with the concept that bigger is better.

most if not all studys say that 45 is no better then a 9mm and I refer to this as proof ....
http://www.usconcealedcarry.net/2012/07 ... led-carry/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Granted no one is under armed today w/ quality defense ammo in 9mm. I have seen some studies showing one of the hardest readily available bullets to stop w/ soft body armor is 9mm+P+ FMJ. Same w/ 357. 1400 FPS & a 38cal/9mm basically non-expanding bullet is tough to stop. I will still stick w/ my "No Better" .45 but will not disparrage those who choose the .380.

[wgoforth]

That is a nice write up BUT the man that can't carry a 9mm in his dress suit is not dressing right or carrying the wrong way. The woman with arthritis that can't hold a gun... it might be safer for the rest of the public for her not to carry! Chances are it might get taken away from her and used on her or in another crime.
Too many times I read or hear of someone not carrying bigger a gun that will do the job BECAUSE it is inconvenient. 32, 25 and 22 are better than a rock but then David slew goliath with a rock!

People get lazy or don’t explore their options. I was reading one guy said he couldn’t wear a full size gun because the handle stuck out too far. “Hey dude pull up your pants or better yet get some that fit better”. Those pants might have fit 10 years ago but not anymore and now you have a gun in the waist band; they are even tighter. Carrying a gun is a wardrobe change to accommodate the extra

Hip huggers are not for gun carriers and to the woman with 20 lbs of junk in her purse and is worried about an extra 8 ozs ; get real… empty some of the junk out. Chances are a small gun will be lost any way in between the makeup and the female hygiene products

I for one have changed a lot of things I do because of boards like this and “criticism” because if 10 people are telling you something isn’t right then you would be a fool not to listen’

A tree that doesn’t flex will break in the winds of change

edit: here is a bus shooting watch as the gunman PULLS an assault rifle out of his pants, now put yourself on that bus do you think a 32 or 25 is going to do some good? Even if you pull it out 6 shots and your done and I doubt if anyone that carries a 25 or 32 will have the hindsight to have an extra mag. say it... "IT will never happen to me" and I bet those people on the bus never expected it either

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qR6HJrZUtU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and one more thing

The caliber war will go on till the cows come home, and doubt that anyone really disagrees with the concept that bigger is better.

most if not all studys say that 45 is no better then a 9mm and I refer to this as proof ....
http://www.usconcealedcarry.net/2012/07 ... led-carry/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I see you have not yet learned the principal of "totality of circumstances" yet... there are various components to everything. Can a 25 or 32 take out a man with an "assault rifle" (you might wish to define that media prejudicial term)? I don't know why not. Just because he holds a rifle doesn't mean he cannot be killed with a 25 or .32 (remember the FL beauty queen who killed a large home invader with one shot of a .32?). Barstool, I teach various levels of gun classes and see folks from all sorts of conditions that come in. My classes are top heavy with elderly. You can't have a one answer fits all. BTW... to others, I certainly never suggested that these folks should carry a P3AT or the like... I consider those to be expert guns. I was giving various scenarios ranging from people at work places who may not be able to carry in a holster to the elderly. As to "well they must not be doing it right" wasn't necessary about concealment as much as what kind of movement they may have to do at work. As you suggest, a tree that doesn't flex... so allow people to flex in directions you might not. This post at least comes across as the exact type I was referring to in my OP.

[wgoforth]

The woman with arthritis that can't hold a gun... it might be safer for the rest of the public for her not to carry! Chances are it might get taken away from her and used on her or in another crime.

This is an awfully broad statement to cover all situations. Home protection, car jackings, etc. would be a perfect example of where they could have enough time to obtain their weapon and fend off an attacker.

...... and to the woman with 20 lbs of junk in her purse and is worried about an extra 8 ozs ; get real… empty some of the junk out. Chances are a small gun will be lost any way in between the makeup and the female hygiene products

If the person carrying off-body is doing it right, they have a separate compartment in their purse or bag. You would never want a handgun laying loose in a purse amongst other items.

I for one have changed a lot of things I do because of boards like this and “criticism” because if 10 people are telling you something isn’t right then you would be a fool not to listen’

Constructive criticism is one thing; belligerence, being a know-it-all and telling people that You know what is best for them' is not a good way to make friends and influence people.

A tree that doesn’t flex will break in the winds of change

I agree to an extent you will need to adjust your habits when you start carrying, but that doesn't mean you can't also look for options that will mean you have very little adjustment to do. Most people don't need to go buy a whole new wardrobe just so they can carry.

[barstoolguru]

I used to carry a LCP thinking it was big enough to do the job until I had an ND here at the house. The damage was at a minim and ever since then I stopped carrying it as a defense weapon.

As far as the purses go women that carry a gun in them do so in the main compartment because they don't know any different or don't care. As far as on body carry if you are a woman; woman’s clothing is a very tight fit most of the time so there is going to be a big wardrobe change. Same with men, if someone wears polo shirts or a polyester type work uniform they are going to have to go bigger so they don't print. Same with pants, lots of people have to go a size or two up to accommodate an IWB holster for it to fit right. I for one had to give up tee shirts when I carry because the print too much and I find that button up shirts work better so a wardrobe change was necessary to accommodate a gun that was worth carrying. Sure you can pocket carry but good luck getting it out in a pinch like when you are sitting.

I went to the gun store the other day and I was listening to that sales guy talk to people. He was so busy trying to make a sale that he never addresses the needs of the person like options and firepower. When I went into the army they didn't say "hey, go over there and pick out a gun. If the 45 is too big you can carry the 380; no they said here’s a gun have a nice day!

Caliper wars are always going to be around and people are always going to have a strong option on size. The ones that make better choices are the ones that take time out to research and/or talk with others.

[wgoforth]

I used to carry a LCP thinking it was big enough to do the job until I had an ND here at the house. The damage was at a minim and ever since then I stopped carrying it as a defense weapon.

As far as the purses go women that carry a gun in them do so in the main compartment because they don't know any different or don't care. As far as on body carry if you are a woman; woman’s clothing is a very tight fit most of the time so there is going to be a big wardrobe change. Same with men, if someone wears polo shirts or a polyester type work uniform they are going to have to go bigger so they don't print. Same with pants, lots of people have to go a size or two up to accommodate an IWB holster for it to fit right. I for one had to give up tee shirts when I carry because the print too much and I find that button up shirts work better so a wardrobe change was necessary to accommodate a gun that was worth carrying. Sure you can pocket carry but good luck getting it out in a pinch like when you are sitting.

I went to the gun store the other day and I was listening to that sales guy talk to people. He was so busy trying to make a sale that he never addresses the needs of the person like options and firepower. When I went into the army they didn't say "hey, go over there and pick out a gun. If the 45 is too big you can carry the 380; no they said here’s a gun have a nice day!

Caliper wars are always going to be around and people are always going to have a strong option on size. The ones that make better choices are the ones that take time out to research and/or talk with others.

Again, you have the assumption that ones who didn't make the choices you did must not have done research... I am not saying I would pick what they have. But I am saying that sometimes folks situations and comfort levels lead them to their decisions and and they get criticized and pushed into a caliber that they may not be able to handle and as a result, don't practice or carry. I am calling for folks to be more patient with those who make other decisions. I am thinking particularly of a fellow on here recently who bought a gun, and rather than compliment, others said "Shudda bought a whatever." We don't know everything about everyones lives, and need to let them make some choices we might not. It's actually possible that a person might know their own business and needs better than other folks. But then, there is a whole political party that hasn't learned that either.

[snatchel]

A wardrobe change is not always necessary, FTR.

This is a picture of me carrying a Glock 17 OWB in a snug fitting t-shirt and shorts:

[barstoolguru]

.

most if not all studys say that 45 is no better then a 9mm and I refer to this as proof ....
http://www.usconcealedcarry.net/2012/07 ... led-carry/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I see you have not yet learned the principal of "totality of circumstances" yet... there are various components to everything. Can a 25 or 32 take out a man with an "assault rifle" (you might wish to define that media prejudicial term)? I don't know why not. Just because he holds a rifle doesn't mean he cannot be killed with a 25 or .32 (remember the FL beauty queen who killed a large home invader with one shot of a .32?). Barstool, I teach various levels of gun classes and see folks from all sorts of conditions that come in. My classes are top heavy with elderly. You can't have a one answer fits all. BTW... to others, I certainly never suggested that these folks should carry a P3AT or the like... I consider those to be expert guns. I was giving various scenarios ranging from people at work places who may not be able to carry in a holster to the elderly. As to "well they must not be doing it right" wasn't necessary about concealment as much as what kind of movement they may have to do at work. As you suggest, a tree that doesn't flex... so allow people to flex in directions you might not. This post at least comes across as the exact type I was referring to in my OP.

[/quote]

I don't have a big title under my name but I do have 45 years of shooting experience so any option I have/give comes from that. But what I will offer is a quote from "in gravest extreme" that pretty much sums it up "lesser guns will kill,(but)they won't always stop”. End quote
Even though a small caliper will kill a person most of the time it lacks the power to create trauma to stop someone, a shock wave to cause trauma and stop forward movement. there was an article of a boy getting shot with a BB gun and was killed so now do you say to your students that they can carry one of those because someone else was killed with one? So if the 32 or 25 calipers where such man stoppers why doesn't the army issue them? (By the .25 are so over loaded that they just about blow the primers out the case just so the bullet can get out the barrel)

http://blogs.sacbee.com/crime/archives/ ... ified.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[rwg3]

Snatchel you have a long way to go before that is a tight fitting tee shirt!

That being said, I will give the opinionated the benefit of the doubt when I say they are offering their opinions on the best caliber in the spirit of helping those who ask. I don't always agree with the feedback and find some of the answers a bit overbearing in style, but when you ask a diverse group of people an openended question you have to expect a certain amount of dissonance.

It is not my place to tell someone what they should or shouldn't carry. I will share what I carry if asked, but what I do is and should be different than what others do. A big part of the question implies an individuals expectation of risk in their daily lives. The concept of fear and personal safety also enters into the equation. All are factors that go into the analysis of an individuals choice in preparing themselves for self defense. The one thing that alwasy rings true is, that preparation at what ever level an individual chooses is better than no preparation at all.

[wgoforth]

.

most if not all studys say that 45 is no better then a 9mm and I refer to this as proof ....
http://www.usconcealedcarry.net/2012/07 ... led-carry/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I see you have not yet learned the principal of "totality of circumstances" yet... there are various components to everything. Can a 25 or 32 take out a man with an "assault rifle" (you might wish to define that media prejudicial term)? I don't know why not. Just because he holds a rifle doesn't mean he cannot be killed with a 25 or .32 (remember the FL beauty queen who killed a large home invader with one shot of a .32?). Barstool, I teach various levels of gun classes and see folks from all sorts of conditions that come in. My classes are top heavy with elderly. You can't have a one answer fits all. BTW... to others, I certainly never suggested that these folks should carry a P3AT or the like... I consider those to be expert guns. I was giving various scenarios ranging from people at work places who may not be able to carry in a holster to the elderly. As to "well they must not be doing it right" wasn't necessary about concealment as much as what kind of movement they may have to do at work. As you suggest, a tree that doesn't flex... so allow people to flex in directions you might not. This post at least comes across as the exact type I was referring to in my OP.

I don't have a big title under my name but I do have 45 years of shooting experience so any option I have/give comes from that. But what I will offer is a quote from "in gravest extreme" that pretty much sums it up "lesser guns will kill,(but)they won't always stop”. End quote
Even though a small caliper will kill a person most of the time it lacks the power to create trauma to stop someone, a shock wave to cause trauma and stop forward movement. there was an article of a boy getting shot with a BB gun and was killed so now do you say to your students that they can carry one of those because someone else was killed with one? So if the 32 or 25 calipers where such man stoppers why doesn't the army issue them? (By the .25 are so over loaded that they just about blow the primers out the case just so the bullet can get out the barrel)

http://blogs.sacbee.com/crime/archives/ ... ified.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;[/quote]

This has now just become silly. I don't tell my students they "can carry any caliBER" (not caliper...a tool for measuring). I leave that to their discretion, their business... Bars, where did I say anything about them being "such man stoppers?" Please stop putting words in my mouth. You seem to miss my point. It is NOT to say small caliBers are as good as bigger ones (though you argued a 9mm is as good as a .45). Only a fool would argue otherwise. I am saying that we sometimes need to allow that people know what they can handle and we should back off the criticisms.

[snatchel]

Snatchel you have a long way to go before that is a tight fitting tee shirt! .

LoL. Well it feels snug. Maybe i'm just having a fat day. I am bloateddddddd.... haha.

[barstoolguru]

.

This has now just become silly. I don't tell my students they "can carry any caliBER" (not caliper...a tool for measuring). I leave that to their discretion, their business... Bars, where did I say anything about them being "such man stoppers?" Please stop putting words in my mouth. You seem to miss my point. It is NOT to say small caliBers are as good as bigger ones (though you argued a 9mm is as good as a .45). Only a fool would argue otherwise. I am saying that we sometimes need to allow that people know what they can handle and we should back off the criticisms.

. there are various components to everything. Can a 25 or 32 take out a man with an "assault rifle" (you might wish to define that media prejudicial term)? I don't know why not. Just because he holds a rifle doesn't mean he cannot be killed with a 25 or .32 (remember the FL beauty queen who killed a large home invader with one shot of a .32?).

To me that sounds like a reference to stopping power “to kill, to end all movement”. Or where you referring to just shooting them so they can have a second chance and shoot back?