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Re: Pros and Cons of CHL

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:18 am
by Sangiovese
Triggerdan wrote:C-dub,

Thanks for your replies. I did mean a beer "with" dinner, not "for" dinner. The not having an open container is easy to deal with, I have no need for drinking a beer while driving or having an open container in the vehicle for that matter. I was in a hurry to get out of the office with my first post and typed a little faster than my brain was working. As I understand it, there is no definite measure of under the influence for having a CHL which means the .08 does not necessarily come into play. That is the issue that I am really concerned with.

Thanks.
.08 isn't required to be in violation, whether you have a chl or not.

Texas Penal Code Chapter 49 (which is where public intoxication, DWI, etc... are found) says that
"Intoxicated" means:
(A) not having the normal use of mental or physical faculties by reason of the introduction of alcohol, a controlled substance, a drug, a dangerous drug, a combination of two or more of those substances, or any other substance into the body; or
(B) having an alcohol concentration of 0.08 or more.
TPC 49.01
*edited to add information

Re: Pros and Cons of CHL

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:37 pm
by C-dub
Same discussion popped up in this other thread. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=58271&start=15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Pros and Cons of CHL

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:59 pm
by 77346
anygunanywhere wrote:Cons of having a CHL.

Thinking........

Nothing there.

Anygunanywhere
I can think of a "cons"

1. you spend more money on guns: an EDC gun, a backup, plus all the accessories (IWB, OWB, pocket, wallet holsters, etc.) :shock:

2. you spend more money on clothes as your old clothes may not be perfect for concealing the gun(s) :roll:

3. you spend more money on ammo and time at the range becoming proficient with your EDC gun :oops:

4. your wife/husband/significant other won't stop complaining about 1, 2 & 3 :nono:

Re: Pros and Cons of CHL

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:54 am
by anygunanywhere
77346 wrote:
anygunanywhere wrote:Cons of having a CHL.

Thinking........

Nothing there.

Anygunanywhere
I can think of a "cons"

1. you spend more money on guns: an EDC gun, a backup, plus all the accessories (IWB, OWB, pocket, wallet holsters, etc.) :shock:

2. you spend more money on clothes as your old clothes may not be perfect for concealing the gun(s) :roll:

3. you spend more money on ammo and time at the range becoming proficient with your EDC gun :oops:

4. your wife/husband/significant other won't stop complaining about 1, 2 & 3 :nono:

1. I did this before CHL.

2. I had the clothes already.

3. I did this before CHL.

4. She gave up a long time ago, especially after she picked out her EDC and I bought it for her.

Still not negatives for moi.

Anygunanywhere

Re: Pros and Cons of CHL

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:26 am
by Skiprr
C-dub wrote:Same discussion popped up in this other thread. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=58271&start=15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The same discussion (intoxication) has popped up many times over the years. (Not addressed to you C-dub; just ranting.)

Section 49.01 of the Penal Code hasn't changed a bit in all that time.

Is it legal to have a beer or a glass of wine if you are a normal adult, of a normal weight, with a normal metabolism, and who has no medical conditions or has consumed no other medications/substances that might exacerbate or magnify the effect of the alcohol?

It almost certainly is legal. And there is no distinction in the legality among carrying a concealed firearm, driving an automobile, or operating a watercraft. In Texas law, intoxication is intoxication.

That's why PC §49.01 has to be worded in such a way that intoxication by alcohol cannot materially be differentiated from intoxication by other substances.

Yes, there is a standard for intoxication by alcohol. PC §49.01(2)(B) contains the infamous "...alcohol concentration of 0.08 or more." (But you do know, right, that "alcohol concentration" does not strictly mean Blood Alcohol Concentration or "BAC"...another misconception: see PC §49.01 for what 0.08 means in terms of breath, urine, and blood.)

What baffles me is why so many people's eyes seem drawn to 0.08, yet they ignore the overriding 42 words above it in PC §49.01(2)(A). The alcohol concentration specification is only an OR. It is only a single, specific quantifier by which you can be adjudged intoxicated.

You can be adjudged intoxicated by "...the introduction of alcohol, a controlled substance, a drug, a dangerous drug, a combination of two or more of those substances, or any other substance into the body." Period.

Pop a few Quaaludes, and you will probably be intoxicated. Pop a Quaalude and have a beer, and you will probably be intoxicated. Never have a drink in your life but have a strong predilection for crystal meth, and you're probably intoxicated most of the time.

Therein lies the rub, and why the law cannot be more specific than it is.

Does the habitual drunk driver worry about the consequences of his actions? Certainly not.

Does the conscientious CHL holder worry about the definition and consequences of intoxication? Absolutely.

That's what sets us apart.

That's why this subject is perennial. We'll see it pop up again in a few months.

PC §49.01 defines Texas law regarding what intoxication means. Do not let anyone tell you otherwise...that includes misinformed CHL instructors. There is no distinction under law for CHL holders; you are held to no separate legal standard regarding intoxication.

That said, there is what is legal and what is right.

Personally, I never carry or drive if I consume even a single drink. But that's purely a personal choice.

Many years ago, a close friend of mine was killed by a drunk driver running a red light. T-boned her driver-side and killed her on the spot. That brought it home to me and solidified my choice.

I enjoy a good wine with dinner. And it's been difficult to restrict that to at-home dining, particularly with business entertaining. But if asked, I simply say that I've made a choice never to drink and drive.

Also important to me: please don't text and drive. And enforce no-texting while driving with others you know.

Houston rush-hour traffic was bad 10 years ago. With population expansion it's much worse. With the proliferation of smartphones and texting, it's become downright dangerous. If you're in a major metropolitan area, you've also no doubt seen the effects.

Re: Pros and Cons of CHL

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:45 am
by kjolly
The pro is that you are in position to legaly defend your family if the occasion arises. Most likely it will not however being able to stop a attack rather than being a victim is the huge pro.
The Con is you are now held to higher standards of conduct..however that might also be a pro. Many of us needed to learn how to grow up.

Re: Pros and Cons of CHL

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:53 am
by jimlongley
anygunanywhere wrote:Cons of having a CHL.

Thinking........

Nothing there.

Anygunanywhere
I can think of one, depletion of the budget because you keep buying holsters, belts, mag pouches, mags, and . . . and . . . guns.

My wife, who stood in the door to my house years ago when we were first dating and told me, after seeing my gun cabinet, that she didn't think she could live in a house with guns, has aced her requal written and shooting every time, and owns about half the guns in the house.

But that's not really a con is it?

Re: Pros and Cons of CHL

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:59 am
by Triggerdan
Thanks to all of you for your input and clarification.

Re: Pros and Cons of CHL

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:08 am
by anygunanywhere
jimlongley wrote:
anygunanywhere wrote:Cons of having a CHL.

Thinking........

Nothing there.

Anygunanywhere
I can think of one, depletion of the budget because you keep buying holsters, belts, mag pouches, mags, and . . . and . . . guns.

My wife, who stood in the door to my house years ago when we were first dating and told me, after seeing my gun cabinet, that she didn't think she could live in a house with guns, has aced her requal written and shooting every time, and owns about half the guns in the house.

But that's not really a con is it?
Not in my book. That is one of those stories that cause my eyes to start sweating.

Anygunanywhere

Re: Pros and Cons of CHL

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:46 pm
by flechero
Cons of having a CHL.

Only that we have to pay for the ability to exercise that right!

Re: Pros and Cons of CHL

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:53 pm
by C-dub
flechero wrote:Cons of having a CHL.

Only that we have to pay for the ability to exercise that right!
Oooh, good one!

Re: Pros and Cons of CHL

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:56 am
by BigBen
There is only one con I have. Seeing a new 30.06 sign on your favorite restaurant, store, or hang-out. :leaving

Re: Pros and Cons of CHL

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:27 am
by C-dub
BigBen wrote:There is only one con I have. Seeing a new 30.06 sign on your favorite restaurant, store, or hang-out. :leaving
That's okay. You still couldn't legally carry in there without a CHL.

Re: Pros and Cons of CHL

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:10 pm
by tbrown
Skiprr wrote:You can be adjudged intoxicated by "...the introduction of alcohol, a controlled substance, a drug, a dangerous drug, a combination of two or more of those substances, or any other substance into the body." Period.

Pop a few Quaaludes, and you will probably be intoxicated. Pop a Quaalude and have a beer, and you will probably be intoxicated. Never have a drink in your life but have a strong predilection for crystal meth, and you're probably intoxicated most of the time.
It's not only illegal drugs. Someone can be intoxicated because of vicodin prescribed for a kidney stone or a bad back. They can be intoxicated by prescription or OTC cold medicine, or by drugs prescribed for depression or ADHD.
Skiprr wrote:Therein lies the rub, and why the law cannot be more specific than it is.
:iagree: and if a CHL thinks they're too intoxicated to carry, they definitely shouldn't drive.

Re: Pros and Cons of CHL

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:58 pm
by srothstein
You all missed one other point. It doesn't have to be an illegal or controlled substance. It can be cough medicine or Listerine if you drink enough. And if any of you have seen little kids, it can be a sugar high also. If you think of the famous Twinkie defense in California, his real argument was intoxication and withdrawal symptoms. Intoxication is not a legal defense in Texas, but if you think of some of the defenses that have been claimed (successfully or otherwise), it might help you consider when you can be charged for intoxication.