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C-dub wrote:

snatchel wrote: --Assuming I didn't actually see a weapon, I would have done nothing. If he had a handgun out and was waving it around, I may react differently. In this case I would most likely have stood back and watched, and tried to get a license/make/model when he left.

Same as you. Not a thing until he actually produced a weapon.

Yep. Now if he made any moves like herding employees/customers to the back, actually pulling a gun and pointing it...things might change very quickly.

I would not have pulled my weapon until I felt that the life of the clerk or mine is in danger. Some thug saying he has a gun and just wanted the few bucks in the register is one story. A thug wanting to inflict bodily harm is another, and without being there it is hard to tell his actions.

I'm glad I live in a quiet town.

If a person is threatening the use of a gun in a robbery and is standing between me and the exit, and I hear the guy say "This is a robbery, I have a gun, Give me all the money n the register or I'll shoot you"..... Am I supposed to NOT be in fear for my life? Am I supposed to actually wait for the felon to actually produce said weapon and give up any potentially life-saving tactical advantage?

I agree that a weapon doesn't need to be exposed to be considered "life threatening."

Still.... I would have sat back and done nothing. I have drawn my own personal lines in which I will defend myself. I have drawn my own personal lines in which I will defend another. Most of the folks on this forum have done the same, and I doubt any two people will draw them in the same fashion. I'm not sure that there is a right/wrong answer--but the point of this exercise was to remind us all where that line lay.

If you don't know where your line is, you need to really think about it.

snatchel wrote:I agree that a weapon doesn't need to be exposed to be considered "life threatening."

Still.... I would have sat back and done nothing. I have drawn my own personal lines in which I will defend myself. I have drawn my own personal lines in which I will defend another. Most of the folks on this forum have done the same, and I doubt any two people will draw them in the same fashion. I'm not sure that there is a right/wrong answer--but the point of this exercise was to remind us all where that line lay.

If you don't know where your line is, you need to really think about it.

Yep, to all the above.

100% with the part in bold. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but you should think about it.

Any time a robber, during the commission of a robbery, states that he has a gun or does something to create the apprehension that he has a gun, that immediately escalates the offense to armed robbery, whether he actually has a gun or not. Any reasonable person would take him at his word at that point.

snatchel wrote:I have drawn my own personal lines in which I will defend myself. I have drawn my own personal lines in which I will defend another. Most of the folks on this forum have done the same, and I doubt any two people will draw them in the same fashion.

If you don't know where your line is, you need to really think about it.

Good advice, but along with those "personal lines," you (generic) need to also be prepared to act accordingly on those lines--which can work both ways. You can be prepared to do nothing and inexplicably find yourself doing something.

And, vice versa.

I actually don't have any personal lines but instead will take any and each situation as it occurs or unfolds. Being military trained as well as former LE helps tremendously. Having been in pucker-factor-10 situations also allows me the ability to know how I'll react, thus, making it easier for me to not draw any personal lines.

If I never have to draw, aim and fire my gun at another human being for the rest of my life, I'll be eternally grateful.

JD

74novaman wrote:

snatchel wrote:I agree that a weapon doesn't need to be exposed to be considered "life threatening."

Still.... I would have sat back and done nothing. I have drawn my own personal lines in which I will defend myself. I have drawn my own personal lines in which I will defend another. Most of the folks on this forum have done the same, and I doubt any two people will draw them in the same fashion. I'm not sure that there is a right/wrong answer--but the point of this exercise was to remind us all where that line lay.

If you don't know where your line is, you need to really think about it.

Yep, to all the above.

100% with the part in bold. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but you should think about it.

The best time to think about it is NOW, when you are in control of your faculties. Not when you are in a potential life and death situation.

Kythas wrote:Any time a robber, during the commission of a robbery, states that he has a gun or does something to create the apprehension that he has a gun, that immediately escalates the offense to armed robbery, whether he actually has a gun or not. Any reasonable person would take him at his word at that point.

I agree but the fact that I can legally shoot him in the back doesn't mean I have to.

I agree with Snatchel saying, "If you don't know where your line is, you need to really think about it." If you can't make the decision now, relaxed and sitting in front of computer, with plenty of time to consider consequences, how do you expect to make a good decision in a split second under stress?

RoyGBiv wrote:If a person is threatening the use of a gun in a robbery and is standing between me and the exit, and I hear the guy say "This is a robbery, I have a gun, Give me all the money n the register or I'll shoot you"..... Am I supposed to NOT be in fear for my life? Am I supposed to actually wait for the felon to actually produce said weapon and give up any potentially life-saving tactical advantage?

This...

Good discussion. A lot depends on where I am in relation to the bad guy, how many other people are in the store, might there be an undetected accomplice covering the bad guy's back, can I unholster and keep the gun at my side undetected, is the threat escalating or is the bad guy picking up the money and leaving without producing his alleged gun. There is no easy answer to less than a dynamic situation.

I've always dreaded being in this kind of scenario. Yes, we can always say a couple hundred bucks from a register isn't worth a human life, but there are two other factors:

1. Death Row is full of people who shot convenience store clerks after robbing them.

2. You're in the perennial quandary of the CHL holder: whether to draw now, in response to a perceived potential threat, or wait until the BG has his gun out and pointed at you with his finger on the trigger, in which case you don't have time to draw and survive.

To be honest, I'm not sure I could do it, but the only response that addresses both of these is to simply draw and take him out. I suppose it IS possible to brandish your gun at him and say "leave, and nothing will happen," then if he draws, open fire.

Ruark wrote:whether to draw now, in response to a perceived potential threat,

When a person declares they are armed and will shoot unless their demands are satisfied... "perceived" and "potential" ..... are not a correct description of the situation. IMO only a fool would wait for further evidence of malicious intent before taking action. Perhaps the best action is to flee, which would be a perfectly sane reaction. But standing around wondering if the threat will become more dire is not a life-enhancing response.

Ruark wrote:2. You're in the perennial quandary of the CHL holder: whether to draw now, in response to a perceived potential threat, or wait until the BG has his gun out and pointed at you with his finger on the trigger, in which case you don't have time to draw and survive.

When a situation has developed enough that one has clear justification for the use of deadly force -- and the commission of a robbery qualifies -- then there is no quandary in my mind. One is legally justified in drawing and "intentional failure to conceal" is no longer a concern.

Now tactically, one may wish to find the best moment to draw. For example, if under observation and waiting for the BG to look away or be distracted. But if I am in the back of the store and the BG is in the front facing the clerk instead of me, then I am drawing for sure. May or may not fire (yet), depending upon circumstances.

Jumping Frog wrote:

Ruark wrote:2. You're in the perennial quandary of the CHL holder: whether to draw now, in response to a perceived potential threat, or wait until the BG has his gun out and pointed at you with his finger on the trigger, in which case you don't have time to draw and survive.

When a situation has developed enough that one has clear justification for the use of deadly force -- and the commission of a robbery qualifies -- then there is no quandary in my mind. One is legally justified in drawing and "intentional failure to conceal" is no longer a concern.

Now tactically, one may wish to find the best moment to draw. For example, if under observation and waiting for the BG to look away or be distracted. But if I am in the back of the store and the BG is in the front facing the clerk instead of me, then I am drawing for sure. May or may not fire (yet), depending upon circumstances.

Unless there is some specific reason to do otherwise, failing to either flee or otherwise act decisively may get you killed.

BG: "Gimme all the cash in the register or I'll shoot you with this gun I have here in my pocket."
You: "Excuse me Sir, but can you SHOW me that gun? I need to be 100% certain that you actually have a gun so I'm more comfortable using my gun to shoot you in self defense. "

or ... Hard to decide..