gradual erosion of freedom

[seamusTX]

Abraham, it's not all-or-nothing.

I think some reasonable precautions need to be taken to prevent someone getting on board with an explosive device or some other tool of mayhem. Certainly many planes have been brought down or hijacked by terrorists and lunatics.

The 9/11/2001 atrocity was not simply the result of the puny weapons that the hijackers could bring on board. It also involved the airlines' refusal over many years to install cockpit doors, and the protocol of cooperating with hijackers. Upstream from that were intelligence failures that ignored multiple indications of danger.

The problem as I see it is that they are trying to screen every single passenger for every possible threat, which results in a huge cost (including people having to get to the airport three hours before a flight, and flights being delayed because of some kind of kerfuffle). It's unreasonable. It's like wearing SCUBA gear in the shower.

- Jim

[baldeagle]

Am I being naive in thinking that yes, their approach is less than perfect, often far less, but those in power are trying to keep us safe...? Or are you thinking you can do better?

How about this: Would be it better to prevent air terrorism if there was no effort what so ever to keep air flight citizens safe...? Just get on board and hope for the best?

Like that better...?

The Israelis have figured it out. They use profiling and don't disturb the fliers unless they trigger certain criteria. Your luggage doesn't get xrayed, you don't go through a full body scanner, you don't have to remove your belt and your shoes. 2-5% of the passengers receive additional screening, some of it taking hours and being extremely aggressive, but the other 95-98% pass through with much less effort than American airports.

[philip964]

Today in democratic India. A long time United States ally.

http://www.france24.com/en/20121119-ind ... -thackeray" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Arrested for complaining on facebook about the shut down of the city(Mumbai) (Bombay) over the death of Mr. Thackeray who is some kind of religious leader. A person who "liked" her comment was also arrested.

In freedom closer to home a San Antonio girl is being expelled from a San Antonio magnet high school for science and engineering for refusing to wear a RFID id tag around her neck as the school district has required.

Did anyone else read "Brave New World" as a kid in High School, hard to believe it is starting to happen in my life time.

And this is just today, and I haven't been able to find the other story I wanted to post.

Anyone notice I used the word b..b instead of the real word. Was that being too tin foil hat?

[seamusTX]

The Israelis have figured it out. They use profiling ... 2-5% of the passengers receive additional screening, some of it taking hours and being extremely aggressive, but the other 95-98% pass through with much less effort than American airports.

This is true, and they have a perfect record in terms of hijacking and other acts of terrorism on airlines taking off from Israel.

However, Israel is different from the U.S. in several respects:

• The entire country has fewer flights per day or year than probably any single U.S. airport like O'Hare, Hartsfield, JFK, or DFW. That means the Israelis can have a relatively small number of highly trained agents, as opposed to the "mass production" security processing in the U.S.
• Israel does not have a formal bill of rights or civil rights laws as we do - which seems to be the root of this thread.
• The U.S. quite simply has a lot more kooks who don't fit any profile of Islamic terrorist. In the 1970s it was Cubans. Over the years flights have been hijacked by suicidal people, extortionists like "D.B. Cooper" (whoever he really was), and mentally ill people with no political profile. One flight was apparently crashed intentionally by a pilot (EgyptAir Flight 990).

- Jim

[baldeagle]

The Israelis have figured it out. They use profiling ... 2-5% of the passengers receive additional screening, some of it taking hours and being extremely aggressive, but the other 95-98% pass through with much less effort than American airports.

This is true, and they have a perfect record in terms of hijacking and other acts of terrorism on airlines taking off from Israel.

However, Israel is different from the U.S. in several respects:

• The entire country has fewer flights per day or year than probably any single U.S. airport like O'Hare, Hartsfield, JFK, or DFW. That means the Israelis can have a relatively small number of highly trained agents, as opposed to the "mass production" security processing in the U.S.

Atlanta's Hartsfield Airport has just under 89 million passengers a year. Ben Gurion has about 13 million. So for every passenger who passes through Ben Gurion, less than 7 pass through Hartsfield. The problem isn't quite as large as you seem to think.

[*]Israel does not have a formal bill of rights or civil rights laws as we do - which seems to be the root of this thread.

How's that bill of rights working out for us? EVERYONE gets their luggage searched and is subjected to a metal detector or body scan. It's not like the bill of rights has made much of a difference for us. In fact American security is FAR more intrusive than Israeli UNLESS you get caught in the layers of profiling.

[*]The U.S. quite simply has a lot more kooks who don't fit any profile of Islamic terrorist. In the 1970s it was Cubans. Over the years flights have been hijacked by suicidal people, extortionists like "D.B. Cooper" (whoever he really was), and mentally ill people with no political profile. One flight was apparently crashed intentionally by a pilot (EgyptAir Flight 990). [/list]
- Jim

Don't you think there are enough motivated, intelligent people in America that could be trained to screen like the Israelis do? Our problem isn't manpower or technology. It's political. Our politicians have the "courage" to subject ALL of us to demeaning intrusiveness and a massive abrogation of our rights because they DON'T have the courage to pick out the fly stuff from the pepper.

[seamusTX]

Don't you think there are enough motivated, intelligent people in America that could be trained to screen like the Israelis do?

Sure. We have the people. The only possible hangup is finding enough multi-lingual people to deal with international travelers. However, someone who is motivated can learn a foreign language well enough in a few weeks of intensive training. I've done it.

What we don't have a functional management structure in government or private industry.

The entire 9/11 scheme was anticipated. Some of the hijackers were known by name to the FBI and foreign governments friendly to the U.S. Zacarias Moussaoui was arrested August 16, 2001. If they had administered some gentle persuasion, he probably would have blown open as much of the plot as he knew. Several of the 9/11 hijackers were profiled and interrogated on the very day, because they bought one-way first-class tickets. But no one was able to put the pieces together.

When the next incident occurs, it will be anarchists or some kind of apocalyptic freaks, and once again you'll hear how no one could have anticipated it.

- Jim

[philip964]

Prior to 9/11my wife on her key chain had a Swiss army knife. I questioned her about it when flying, she replied, "no one cares", and they didn't.

[Jaguar]

Prior to 9/11my wife on her key chain had a Swiss army knife. I questioned her about it when flying, she replied, "no one cares", and they didn't.

And if she had it on her on a flight tomorrow that I was on, I still would not care.

[seamusTX]

The issue isn't what people can or can't carry onto a plane. There are plenty of potentially lethal weapons that a person can bring onto a plane now. I'm not going to list them, but they are well known.

- Jim

[Dave2]

Whoops, my diatribe wasn't aimed at anyone specific.

I'm simply tired of the criticism of those trying to keep us safe in the air...and yes, they're efforts can be abominable...but better that than the alternative...

I'm not criticizing them for trying to keep us safe, I'm criticizing them for using intrusive methods that are so brain-dead that I've personally witnessed little kids think about it for 30 seconds and spot the holes.

[Jumping Frog]

This post is about gradual erosion of freedom.

Everyone is aware of the saying about a frog who is dropped in boiling water will jump out, but one who is put in water that is gradually being warmed will cook.

Hey!!! I resemble that remark!!!

[philip964]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=59688" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

New thread on metal detectors in a Dallas park.

[WinoVeritas]

We have lost no freedom's. If anything we have more today than 60 years ago. There may be some impediments to reach them (think airport, court, school security, all in place to help keep us safe) but they are still there. Any one expecting personal privacy in the public or cyber domain in this day and age is living in a fantasy world. We live in the freest society in the world, bar none. If you don't believe that, I recommend going to live in another nation for a while to appreciate what we have.

[philip964]

viewtopic.php?f=94&t=59695" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Man it is just every day, emails would be allowed to be read without a warrant if this is passed.

[Jumping Frog]

We have lost no freedom's. If anything we have more today than 60 years ago. There may be some impediments to reach them (think airport, court, school security, all in place to help keep us safe) but they are still there. Any one expecting personal privacy in the public or cyber domain in this day and age is living in a fantasy world. We live in the freest society in the world, bar none. If you don't believe that, I recommend going to live in another nation for a while to appreciate what we have.

You are kidding, right?

It is not just about privacy. One must also remember the huge regulatory burden that affects us both personally as well as all business activity. This super-regulated economy where everything is controlled at the federal level did not exist 50 years ago.

Just a single example: I was struck by the recognition the last time I visited Ireland how terrific their toilets are. No need to double or triple flush to complete the evacuation. A single flush roars through like Niagara Falls carrying everything in its path. Now, I realize some greenies are quite happy with their 1.7 gallon flush US toilets. But for the rest of us, we do not even have the liberty to purchase a nice imported Irish toilet if that is how we wish to spend our money. Every aspect of our lives and the products we purchase are heavily controlled and regulated.

The Heritage Foundation ranks countries every year on a "Freedom Index". The United States currently ranks 10th. Twenty-five years ago we ranked first.

http://www.heritage.org/index/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;