Gun Show Loophole

[Andrew]

To address the OP's original question about terminology, it should start with us - the law-abiding proponents of the 2nd Amendment. We need to stop using the phrases that the liberal msm / anti-2A / gun-grabbers are using that frame the debate & discussion in their terms. There is no gunshow loophole. If you go to a gunshow and buy a gun from a vendor, they do a background check the same as if you were buying from any store. When they say 'gunshow loophole', what they're talking about is private sales & individual to individual transfer. The anti's don't like those phrases because there's no shock value & their phrase paints a darker more nefarious picture than what actually happens. So we need to stop playing by their rules. There is no gunshow loophole, it's a private sale. Also 'gunmen' & 'shooters' should be referred to pshychopaths and/or mandmen. And please, get rid of 'assault weapon'. They're rifles just the same as the .22s that the alligator hunters use in every episode of Swamp People.

[recaffeination]

After years of research, I think I have it figured out. Here it is. To the antis, allowing guns for anybody who doesn't goose step is a loophole. It is and has always been about violating civil rights because they're sociopaths who enjoy hurting people. Recent events have virtually eliminated any possibility of less sinister motivations.

[Dragonfighter]

In my years working mostly South Dallas and Oak Cliff I have come up on (and discreetly removed myself) from more than one "private sale" on the streets. Maybe I am just being prejudiced here, but nothing in those transactions looked like law abiding, FTF, transactions. Could be wrong though.

Added in Edit; What are the chances that someone with a record or nefarious purpose are going to frequent an event that is crawling with uniformed, off duty and retired LEO's...show me the numbers.

[TexasCajun]

The only gun shows I've recently attended have been at the Pasadena Convention Center, Reliant Arena, and Geoarge R Brown Convention Center. There's not much variance in the primary demographic. It may be different in other parts of the state. But around here, the gang-member types would be pretty noticeable. I'm going to go out on a limb here with the following because I'm going to make an assumption. With as rabid as the anti's are, and as willing as they are to twist facts & figures to suit their purpose; I find it interesting that guns unsed in crimes have not been traced back to gun shows. If there were even a remote link of a gun possession originating from a gun show, shouldn't we have heard lots about it/them by now?? But we haven't, have we? My guess would be that we haven't heard of such misrepresentations because they don't exist or they are at least so few & far between as to be statistically insignificant. Kind of like how you don't hear the anti's talking about how CHL holders are murderous, blood-thirsty vigilantes who would like nothing better than to bathe the streets in the blood of innocents and criminals alike. You don't hear that arguement because the crime rate amongst CHL holders is on par with LEOs.

[RPB]

A law requiring criminal A to go through an FFL to sell a stolen gun from house/car burglar B to criminal C to use in Robbery D .... is just sorta silly if anyone expects criminal A and criminal C to obey that law, dontcha think?

-------------------------

All it does is make it more expense and trouble for "Background checked CHL holder, forum member with 3,000 posts" and myself to meet in the WalMart parking lot, introduce ourselves, run to a range (ok, 20 private acres out in the country), shoot each others pistols and decide to trade.

[nightmare]

OK.... I'll take the bait....

Is there more that can be done to prevent criminals from obtaining guns through private sales? What exactly?
IMO, if our best answer is "I always ask for ID" or some similar response, we've lost.

The way I see it, it's all too easy for a criminal to have a shave, put on some clean clothes and meet with a private seller to buy a gun.

I agree! Why in the name of Sam Hill are they letting violent criminals out of prison?

I blame the "bleeding hearts" for helping violent criminals make real bleeding hearts and heads and guts and...

[Topbuilder]

OK, maybe I don't know what I am talking about. Just heard one of the Liberal gals on Fox say 32 states allow sales at gun shows with no background checks. Also, I was under the impression I could not go to Oklahoma, LA, AZ and walk into a gun store/pawn shop and buy a gun and drive home. Am I wrong?

[Ameer]

OK, maybe I don't know what I am talking about. Just heard one of the Liberal gals on Fox say 32 states allow sales at gun shows with no background checks. Also, I was under the impression I could not go to Oklahoma, LA, AZ and walk into a gun store/pawn shop and buy a gun and drive home. Am I wrong?

Maybe. Good guys can only buy handguns in their state of residence but it may be legal to purchase a rifle or shotgun in another state. Federal law allows FTF nonresident sales but only from a FFL and a background check is required. However, some states do not allow sales to nonresidents, and others do not allow their subjects to buy guns outside their borders.

[Keith B]

OK, maybe I don't know what I am talking about. Just heard one of the Liberal gals on Fox say 32 states allow sales at gun shows with no background checks. Also, I was under the impression I could not go to Oklahoma, LA, AZ and walk into a gun store/pawn shop and buy a gun and drive home. Am I wrong?

Private sales of firearms are able to be made without a transfer through an FFL with a few restrictions on interstate transfers. If they are a dealer at a gun show, then you must fill out paperwork.

You can buy a long gun in another state and bring it back IF that state allows sales to your state. Some only allow sales to adjoining states or within their own states. You can buy a handgun in another state, but it must be shipped to an FFL in your state to do the paperwork and transfer the gun to you.

EDIt TO ADD: Ameer beat me to it.

[sjfcontrol]

OK, maybe I don't know what I am talking about. Just heard one of the Liberal gals on Fox say 32 states allow sales at gun shows with no background checks. Also, I was under the impression I could not go to Oklahoma, LA, AZ and walk into a gun store/pawn shop and buy a gun and drive home. Am I wrong?

Private sales of firearms are able to be made without a transfer through an FFL with a few restrictions on interstate transfers. If they are a dealer at a gun show, then you must fill out paperwork.

You can buy a long gun in another state and bring it back IF that state allows sales to your state. Some only allow sales to adjoining states or within their own states. You can buy a handgun in another state, but it must be shipped to an FFL in your state to do the paperwork and transfer the gun to you.

EDIt TO ADD: Ameer beat me to it.

And...
They want to make that even MORE complex?

[Topbuilder]

OK, maybe I don't know what I am talking about. Just heard one of the Liberal gals on Fox say 32 states allow sales at gun shows with no background checks. Also, I was under the impression I could not go to Oklahoma, LA, AZ and walk into a gun store/pawn shop and buy a gun and drive home. Am I wrong?

Private sales of firearms are able to be made without a transfer through an FFL with a few restrictions on interstate transfers. If they are a dealer at a gun show, then you must fill out paperwork.

You can buy a long gun in another state and bring it back IF that state allows sales to your state. Some only allow sales to adjoining states or within their own states. You can buy a handgun in another state, but it must be shipped to an FFL in your state to do the paperwork and transfer the gun to you.

EDIt TO ADD: Ameer beat me to it.

And...
They want to make that even MORE complex?

Really. Anyone know about the 32 state no background checks at gun shows? I know I was in Atlanta at a BIG show. They do checks there.

[Wes]

OK, maybe I don't know what I am talking about. Just heard one of the Liberal gals on Fox say 32 states allow sales at gun shows with no background checks. Also, I was under the impression I could not go to Oklahoma, LA, AZ and walk into a gun store/pawn shop and buy a gun and drive home. Am I wrong?

More media lies igniting distrust in the public. The sad thing is people actually believe this, and worst. I have actually had a friend ask me why you get to skip the waiting period at gun shows! I was kind of blown away but people really are ignorant of the laws. The media non-sense only makes it worse.

[G26ster]

Keeping guns out of the hands of criminals

2012

Criminal #1: "Did you bring the gun?"
Criminal #2: "Did you bring the cash?"
Criminal #1: "Here ya go." (Takes cash and hands over gun)

2013

Criminal #1: "Did you bring the gun?"
Criminal #2: "Did you bring the cash?"
Gun Shop Owner(FFL): "Ok, fill out the 4473 and I'll call it in."

Yeah, right

[Shoot_First]

OK.... I'll take the bait....

Is there more that can be done to prevent criminals from obtaining guns through private sales? What exactly?
IMO, if our best answer is "I always ask for ID" or some similar response, we've lost.

The way I see it, it's all too easy for a criminal to have a shave, put on some clean clothes and meet with a private seller to buy a gun.

Seller: Are you prohibited from owning a firearm?
Buyer: No
Seller: (well, he looks ok, so, let's do it)... Ok, here it is..

I completely understand the concept of "private property", but I would love to have a tool of some sort to verify that a private buyer is not a prohibited person. Wouldn't you? And I'd like that tool to provide legal protection that will hold up in court if that gun ever turns up as having been used in a crime.

If I ever put a gun up for sale, you can expect a bill of sale to be involved. At least I'm covered for having a documented sale date. But how do I, as a responsible citizen that wants to help keep guns away from criminals, make certain my buyer is not prohibited other than taking their word for it.?

When you tell your prospective buyer "Let's just go over to my local gun store where you can get cleared by a NCIS check" and the buyer finds a quick reason to be somewhere else or he says "Let's go" and then you know it would be a waste of time and money.

[RPB]

OK.... I'll take the bait....

Is there more that can be done to prevent criminals from obtaining guns through private sales? What exactly?
IMO, if our best answer is "I always ask for ID" or some similar response, we've lost.

The way I see it, it's all too easy for a criminal to have a shave, put on some clean clothes and meet with a private seller to buy a gun.

Seller: Are you prohibited from owning a firearm?
Buyer: No
Seller: (well, he looks ok, so, let's do it)... Ok, here it is..

I completely understand the concept of "private property", but I would love to have a tool of some sort to verify that a private buyer is not a prohibited person. Wouldn't you? And I'd like that tool to provide legal protection that will hold up in court if that gun ever turns up as having been used in a crime.

If I ever put a gun up for sale, you can expect a bill of sale to be involved. At least I'm covered for having a documented sale date. But how do I, as a responsible citizen that wants to help keep guns away from criminals, make certain my buyer is not prohibited other than taking their word for it.?

When you tell your prospective buyer "Let's just go over to my local gun store where you can get cleared by a NCIS check" and the buyer finds a quick reason to be somewhere else or he says "Let's go" and then you know it would be a waste of time and money.

If I am buying face to face from a CHL and I show him my CHL and he suggests going to a FFL, I will buy elsewhere.
Out in my neck of the woods people took their guns to a meetin' spot and traded between themselves so nothing would be on any govt record of what they owned .... Not sure that'd do any good since each trader would have "some" firearm in their name at some time ... but I like to keep Government paperwork to a minimum ... and I had background checks for a CHL and I do not do government paperwork buying/selling used refrigerator/dishwasher/couch/ etc....Paperwork reduction act ... saves taxpayer money.