TexasCHLforum.com

Just got off chat with a buddy that is taking CHL instructor class this week. He said they told his class that things had gotten very lax and that a lot of changes will be coming in the future.

cbunt1 wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
I know it seems that way, but everything was so hectic in 1995 when the program was getting set up. The NRA instructor requirement apparently was missed by the people running the program then and it's not surprising that no one went back a read the statute again. Everyone thought they were doing what was required.

I have no idea if instructors renewing will have to prove they are a certified instructor (NRA, TCLEOSE, or other). However, to be safe, every instructor should try to get an NRA certification before the end of the year. This is a statutory requirement and now that it's come to light so to speak, it's going to be hard for a state agency to ignore it. (No, I don't teach NRA instructor courses! )

Chas.

I was under the impression that per-certification of candidates (e.g. TECLEOSE, or NRA) was the difference between whether we had to take the "long" or "short" instructor's class. At least according to the troopers in my class last January, two days of our class was to cover the material/training techniques that we would have been exposed to in NRA's program.

That is how it's been treated since 1995, but that was an oversight.

cbunt1 wrote:Or is that your point--that everyone supposed that the material was the requirement rather than the certification?

I'm not sure I understand your question. It's just conjecture on my part, but I think everyone just missed the statutory requirement that all CHL Instructors must also have a firearms instructor certification from TCLEOSE, NRA, or another nationally recognized certification course. According the the Code (see below), this applies to both new and renewal CHL instructors. It appears that DPS is now enforcing this requirement, based upon reports I've read here on the Forum. I have not spoken to anyone at DPS about this issue.

Chas.

Tex. Gov't Code §411.190 wrote:Sec. 411.190. QUALIFIED HANDGUN INSTRUCTORS. (a) The director may certify as a qualified handgun instructor a person who:

• (1) is certified by the Commission on Law Enforcement Officer Standards and Education or under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, to instruct others in the use of handguns;
  
  (2) regularly instructs others in the use of handguns and has graduated from a handgun instructor school that uses a nationally accepted course designed to train persons as handgun instructors; or
  
  (3) is certified by the National Rifle Association of America as a handgun instructor.

(b) In addition to the qualifications described by Subsection (a), a qualified handgun instructor must be qualified to instruct persons in:

• (1) the laws that relate to weapons and to the use of deadly force;
  
  (2) handgun use, proficiency, and safety;
  
  (3) nonviolent dispute resolution; and
  
  (4) proper storage practices for handguns, including storage practices that eliminate the possibility of accidental injury to a child.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

Tex. Gov't Code §411.190 wrote:Sec. 411.190. QUALIFIED HANDGUN INSTRUCTORS. (a) The director may certify as a qualified handgun instructor a person who:

• (1) is certified by the Commission on Law Enforcement Officer Standards and Education or under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, to instruct others in the use of handguns;
  
  (2) regularly instructs others in the use of handguns and has graduated from a handgun instructor school that uses a nationally accepted course designed to train persons as handgun instructors; or
  
  (3) is certified by the National Rifle Association of America as a handgun instructor.

(b) In addition to the qualifications described by Subsection (a), a qualified handgun instructor must be qualified to instruct persons in:

• (1) the laws that relate to weapons and to the use of deadly force;
  
  (2) handgun use, proficiency, and safety;
  
  (3) nonviolent dispute resolution; and
  
  (4) proper storage practices for handguns, including storage practices that eliminate the possibility of accidental injury to a child.

[/quote]

Now I'm following you. I didn't ask what I intended to previously, but you figured it out anyway. (Clearly I shouldn't be trying to get my mind around fine points of law after 13 hours at the office LOL.) Although the "extra" material DPS presents in the "long course," is indeed from NRA, which is of course recognized, we don't "graduate" from said accredited course. Texas CHL instructor certification probably wouldn't pass the "nationally accepted" clause, or at least good arguments could be made either way.

That settles it. I'm going to push to get that NRA instructor certification. Clause (1) and (3) are unambiguous; clause (2) not so much.

I don't post often most of the time just listen & learn from folks that have been doing this a long time. I must say I am a little surprised that we seem to be changing course in the middle of the stream. Saying folks that are instructors who have been teaching classes now have other stuff to take in order to renew. I'm getting old so maybe I didn't understand what was said when I went to instructor class but could have sworn they told me that if you had TCLEOSE or NRA you qualified for the short course but maybe I'm wrong. Any way these folks at DPS are good people & put on a fine program so will do what is required in order to renew. Have already signed up for the NRA courses. Thanks for all the wonderful info y'all put out for us on the forum.

cw3van wrote:I don't post often most of the time just listen & learn from folks that have been doing this a long time. I must say I am a little surprised that we seem to be changing course in the middle of the stream. Saying folks that are instructors who have been teaching classes now have other stuff to take in order to renew. I'm getting old so maybe I didn't understand what was said when I went to instructor class but could have sworn they told me that if you had TCLEOSE or NRA you qualified for the short course but maybe I'm wrong. Any way these folks at DPS are good people & put on a fine program so will do what is required in order to renew. Have already signed up for the NRA courses. Thanks for all the wonderful info y'all put out for us on the forum.

Maybe they got a new lawyer on staff who decided to read the statutes.

So do we know for sure if we have to have the Instructor certificate to renew? If so there is going to be a rush on NRA instructor courses. Had been looking into it already but now I will really step on it.

mommagamber wrote:So do we know for sure if we have to have the Instructor certificate to renew? If so there is going to be a rush on NRA instructor courses. Had been looking into it already but now I will really step on it.

No, I don't think there is definitive word for those that are renewing. But, the general consensus is that you will have to have it either before renewal and some that think it will be before the end of 2013.

I was reading on another CHL forum (I can't remember which one) but they were saying that Texas could invalidate existing CHL holders if it was not taught by a properly certified instructor. I wouldn't expect this but is always a possibility. I guess it becomes a question of when does it become the instructors or the states responsibility to make sure instructors are properly trained. I could also see the law suites start flying......

Sec. 411.190. QUALIFIED HANDGUN INSTRUCTORS. (a) The director may certify as a qualified handgun instructor a person who:

(1) is certified by the Commission on Law Enforcement Officer Standards and Education or under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, to instruct others in the use of handguns;

(2) regularly instructs others in the use of handguns and has graduated from a handgun instructor school that uses a nationally accepted course designed to train persons as handgun instructors; or

(3) is certified by the National Rifle Association of America as a handgun instructor.
(b) In addition to the qualifications described by Subsection (a), a qualified handgun instructor must be qualified to instruct persons in:
(1) the laws that relate to weapons and to the use of deadly force;

(2) handgun use, proficiency, and safety;

(3) nonviolent dispute resolution; and

(4) proper storage practices for handguns, including storage practices that eliminate the possibility of accidental injury to a child.


I still am not sure what will be expected as I read the requirements a lot of confusion for example it states that TCLEOSE is accepted or under chapter 1702, occupations code 1702 deals with private security. I have a J license which is a classroom/firearm to teach commission security (armed) as I do every week since I retired they are on the range every week we qualify these folks before they can be allowed to carry a weapon. Oh well anyway as I stated earlier signed up for NRA courses as I know it will be good information. Me not understanding doesn't mean much as I'm not the brightest bulb in the package.

cw3van wrote:Sec. 411.190. QUALIFIED HANDGUN INSTRUCTORS. (a) The director may certify as a qualified handgun instructor a person who:

(1) is certified by the Commission on Law Enforcement Officer Standards and Education or under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, to instruct others in the use of handguns;

(2) regularly instructs others in the use of handguns and has graduated from a handgun instructor school that uses a nationally accepted course designed to train persons as handgun instructors; or

(3) is certified by the National Rifle Association of America as a handgun instructor.
(b) In addition to the qualifications described by Subsection (a), a qualified handgun instructor must be qualified to instruct persons in:
(1) the laws that relate to weapons and to the use of deadly force;

(2) handgun use, proficiency, and safety;

(3) nonviolent dispute resolution; and

(4) proper storage practices for handguns, including storage practices that eliminate the possibility of accidental injury to a child.


I still am not sure what will be expected as I read the requirements a lot of confusion for example it states that TCLEOSE is accepted or under chapter 1702, occupations code 1702 deals with private security. I have a J license which is a classroom/firearm to teach commission security (armed) as I do every week since I retired they are on the range every week we qualify these folks before they can be allowed to carry a weapon. Oh well anyway as I stated earlier signed up for NRA courses as I know it will be good information. Me not understanding doesn't mean much as I'm not the brightest bulb in the package.

You have said it nice. I am packed right beside you in that package.

RX8er wrote:I was reading on another CHL forum (I can't remember which one) but they were saying that Texas could invalidate existing CHL holders if it was not taught by a properly certified instructor. I wouldn't expect this but is always a possibility.

I can't see that happening at all. Every certified CHL instructor is just that "certified" by the DPS. Perhaps some were improvidently certified, but they are/were certified and were at the time they taught CHL students. There's absolutely no legal basis for DPS to revoke licenses and I cannot imagine they are even considering such a move. If it were to happen, then a class action suit would follow shortly.

Chas.

They might have grounds to revoke a CHL if the class was two hours instead of ten, but I can't find any provisions in the CHL law that allows them to revoke a CHL issued to someone who took a legitimate class from an instructor certified by the Texas Department of Public Safety.

If your high school English teacher had their teaching certificate revoked, would that revoke your high school diploma?

So here is a question. Does it matter which state you get your NRA instructor certificate in?

mommagamber wrote:So here is a question. Does it matter which state you get your NRA instructor certificate in?

Nope. NRA certs are not dependent on states.

RottenApple wrote:

mommagamber wrote:So here is a question. Does it matter which state you get your NRA instructor certificate in?

Nope. NRA certs are not dependent on states.

But I am sure any Texas instructor will be better.

Of Course!