TexasCHLforum.com

george wrote:Well, hypothetically, of course. A person (not me) could use those last 10 shots to help his wife's score on the next bay.

Or vice versa in some cases.

I had a friend draw a smiley face - at the DPS range. Course that might have been back when we were using TX-PT targets. :)

DPS used to discourage head shots - BECAUSE we were using paper target centers and head shots meant we had to tape up the holes outside the target repair. Now that we use new targets for both guns, they do not care if you want to play around w/head shots.

switch wrote:I had a friend draw a smiley face - at the DPS range. Course that might have been back when we were using TX-PT targets. :)

DPS used to discourage head shots - BECAUSE we were using paper target centers and head shots meant we had to tape up the holes outside the target repair. Now that we use new targets for both guns, they do not care if you want to play around w/head shots.

As tight as the scoring is on the instructor course I would not want to waste any points on head shots.

Also, if a student takes all head shots they will fail because of dropping 100 points.

If an instructor candidate chose to make head shots from the 15 yard line, he could still qualify (even if he had 1 clean miss from the closer distances). :)

switch wrote:If an instructor candidate chose to make head shots from the 15 yard line, he could still qualify (even if he had 1 clean miss from the closer distances). :)

Yeah, if you already have your 225, then that is your choice. However, I don't think doing so would not be viewed as favorable by DPS as you are purposely not shooting at the center of the target.

Lucky wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:

jimd1981 wrote:If a student has clearly qualified by scoring 190-200 on the 3 and 7 yard strings (40 shots), can they stop?
That is, can he/she qualify with 40 rounds and skip the 15 yard strings -- or must they shoot 50 rounds, regardless?

The DPS says "To successfully qualify, shooters must complete this course with a minimum score of 70% (175 out of possible 250)."

They have more than the minimum score of 175, so I say they're fine. Stop if they want to.

What say you?

I say that the very first line of the Texas Administrative Code concerning the test says:

(a) The proficiency demonstration course will be the same for both instructors and license applications. The course of fire will be at distances of three, seven, and fifteen yards, for a total of fifty rounds.

Everything else follows that statement: http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/rea ... ch=6&rl=11

The last line of that section of the Texas Administration Code says:

(d) Upon successful completion of both the written and shooting proficiency examinations, the qualified handgun instructor may certify that the concealed handgun license applicant has established his or her proficiency, in a manner to be determined by the department.

My guess is that the state wouldn't take kindly to "gaming" the system if they knew it was going on.......but that's just me. For $140.00, I'll keep quiet about it.

As an instructor, what's your answer to sjfcontrol's question about a student who misses a shot during the time allowed because of an equipment malfunction or just shooting too slow?

Lucky, I'm not an instructor, so I don't have to tell the student anything. LOLZ.

That said, I realize that people are going to miss getting all 50 shots off because of malfunctions, etc. Heck, I've witnessed it myself. And obviously, I realize that one can exceed the minimum score required to pass the range qualification without having to fire all 50 shots to do so. At my first CGL range qualification, that's exactly what happened to me. The instructor came by, looked at my target X number of rounds into the qualification (I don't remember how many it was), and told me that I had already passed so it didn't matter how well I did from then on. In theory, I could have put my gun down and I would have passed the qualification. But I was having fun shooting, and I figured I couldn't damage my score any....so why not?

The thing is, as long as we are forced by law to go through this process if we want to carry a gun, then I'm a big believer in getting with the spirit of it and trying to do it right. That's why I added what I said about the legislature's attitude toward "gaming" the system and trying to twist their legislative intent. They NEVER take that stuff lightly, and if it gets around that enough people are "gaming the system" that way during range qualification, then their reaction isn't going to be in the direction of expanding human liberty. It will be in the opposite direction, and they'll add some extra mandatory crap on that nobody needs.....because that's what governments do. We've been through this recently with people who advertised their out-of-state non-resident carry license classes as an end-around to Texas CHL, and it created a backlash movement in both our legislature; and in the case of Utah, another state's legislature. So I'm always a bit leery of when people game the system because it makes trouble for everyone else.

And let's be honest about a couple of things: A) who will never benefit by getting in an extra 10 rounds of target practice, even if you don't need it to pass the qualification; and B) who doesn't like to shoot that last 10 rounds, even if you don't need it to pass the qualification?

10 rounds of whatever you're shooting isn't enough to put a dent in your "practice budget," so why cheese out on the test? But "cheesing out" on the test is different than running into a legitimate malfunction and barely getting in enough rounds to score a passing grade.

But all of this is just me. YMMV.

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't see it as "gaming the system" at all. There is little gain to the student (saving a few rounds), and NO LOSS to Texas. That is different from those taking out-of-state licenses which was a thumb-of-the-nose at Texas, and eliminated the collection of license fees by Texas.

Like I said, if any instructor isn't comfortable with it, let DPS know what happened and let them handle it. I don't believe that instructors should be making up their own rules -- especially if that means failing a student that has otherwise fulfilled all the requirements.

sjfcontrol wrote:Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't see it as "gaming the system" at all. There is little gain to the student (saving a few rounds), and NO LOSS to Texas. That is different from those taking out-of-state licenses which was a thumb-of-the-nose at Texas, and eliminated the collection of license fees by Texas.

Like I said, if any instructor isn't comfortable with it, let DPS know what happened and let them handle it. I don't believe that instructors should be making up their own rules -- especially if that means failing a student that has otherwise fulfilled all the requirements.

And I didn't argue for failing a student who has otherwise fulfilled the requirements now, did I? I haven't said that I think instructors or students should be reported to DPS. You won't find those words anywhere in what I've posted. ALL I've said is that, given what the law says, I don't think it's a good idea. That's all I've said.

The other thing you're missing is a head shot scored full points on the old TX PT target. You didn't lose points for making a potentially more effective shot to the head or thoracic triangle.

bayouhazard wrote:The other thing you're missing is a head shot scored full points on the old TX PT target. You didn't lose points for making a potentially more effective shot to the head or thoracic triangle.

When we used the TX-PT targets the store i used to teach for would offer a 10% discount on the students next purchase at their store if the student could make a happy face using their first 5 rounds. Of course the store decided whether it really looked like a happy face. Saw more losses of 100% because of one shot outside the ear than I saw real happy faces. It was up to the option of the shooter whether to try for it. Had to quit when DPS went to the B-27 target.

Jerry

sjfcontrol wrote:...send a letter to DPS explaining that although the student did get passing scores, he failed to follow instructions, and explain the situation -- thus letting DPS handle the issue as they see fit.

I instruct my students that any hit outside the 4-point ring but which remains in the green (my B27s are green) is a 3-point hit. Is there something in the statutes or regs that prohibits B27 "head" shots, or regulates the shape of the pattern?

There is nothing that prohibits head shots or defines patterns, that I am aware of. I don't care what pattern, or where my students shoot (as long as it's downrange, on the target). If you get the minimum 175 points, then you pass. What I find very interesting is that there are many of my students who are so competitive that they want the whole 250. All I ask is that you shoot all 50 rounds, because the course of fire is 50 shots and a possible 250 points. Nowhere does DPS say you have to shoot at the middle of the target. You just have to attain the points needed to pass. If you don't shoot all 50, then you tell me 10 when I ask you how many, if any, shots you held. I don't ask you why, I just ask how many were held. I will gladly laugh when I get the first student who brings me a smiley face.

TBM

The_Busy_Mom wrote: I will gladly laugh when I get the first student who brings me a smiley face.

That was my thinking as well.

sjfcontrol wrote:The CHL proficiency exam is a 50-round course of fire. That, however, does NOT mean each and every student will fire all 50 rounds. There can be any number of reasons (as I implied above) why a student may not get off all 50 rounds. Running out of time, and firearm malfunction are two.

The purpose of the proficiency test is twofold...

1) For the student to demonstrate that he is knowledgable about the operation of the firearm, and is capable of handling it safely.
2) For the student to demonstrate that he can score a minimum of 175 out of a total of 250 points.

Even at the Austin DPS range, the person doing the scoring (the person next to you) is supposed to ask the shooter if he had any "holdbacks". Those are rounds that for whatever reason, were not fired. Those rounds are counted as "misses". DPS does NOT fail a prospective instructor because he did not fire all 50 rounds.

I would suggest that any instructor who failed a student that successfully demonstrated the two goals above, but did not fire all 50 rounds, would be courting issues with DPS when the student contacts them to complain about the instructor.

As an example, I was RSO for another instructor's class. One of the students decided he would use a number of his rounds to "draw a smiley face" on the head of his target. (Now before somebody claims that "Head shots are automatic disqualifiers", that is CHL urban legend.) Anyway, I considered how I would have handled this situation. The best resolution that I could come up with would be to go ahead and pass the student (assuming he got a passing score on both written and proficiency test), and send a letter to DPS explaining that although the student did get passing scores, he failed to follow instructions, and explain the situation -- thus letting DPS handle the issue as they see fit.

This was one of the scoring targets we had in class. The head shots received 3 points there were 8 of them, there were only 40 other shots accounted for - 5 pointer total of 224. shooter failed.