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goose wrote:Reviving a bit of an old thread.

Gun show, private, out of state purchase. Is there a generally accepted method of getting an FFL transfer done? Are there vendors/booths for this and I just haven't paid attention? Is it common that a commercial seller (gun store, etc), assuming they have FFLs on staff, do the transfer? Is it just not done?

I am dreaming of getting back to my old Wanamaker's Gun show in Tulsa. I just wonder if there is a convenient way for me to consider private sales or if I just need to assume they are basically not available.

First you need to line up a local FFL who is willing to receive a firearm shipment for you. Both Gunbroker and Bud's Gun Shop maintain FFL lists that you can search by zipcode if you do not already have an FFL.

Then at a gunshow, if you want to do a private sale you simply need to find an FFL/dealer at the gunshow who is willing to do the transfer for you and then mail the gun to your local FFL. I have had FFL's mail out handguns for me as low as $30 for the transfer.

Please note that this means you are paying transfer fees at both ends of the transaction: the OK FFL and the local TX FFL, so it would need to be an items that is unusual, collectable, or a smoking deal to be worth it.

The private individual selling it to you should have no objection because you are the one completing the Form 4473 and paying the fees.

Jumping Frog wrote: First you need to line up a local FFL who is willing to receive a firearm shipment for you. Both Gunbroker and Bud's Gun Shop maintain FFL lists that you can search by zipcode if you do not already have an FFL.

Then at a gunshow, if you want to do a private sale you simply need to find an FFL/dealer at the gunshow who is willing to do the transfer for you and then mail the gun to your local FFL. I have had FFL's mail out handguns for me as low as $30 for the transfer.

Please note that this means you are paying transfer fees at both ends of the transaction: the OK FFL and the local TX FFL, so it would need to be an items that is unusual, collectable, or a smoking deal to be worth it.

The private individual selling it to you should have no objection because you are the one completing the Form 4473 and paying the fees.

ah!! okay this clears up something I wasn't getting. I was thinking that it was an FFL “paper” transfer across state lines.

It's not that there needs to be an FFL paper trail for a gun to cross state lines, it is that the FFL(s) have to transfer the firearm physically across the state line (using postal services, etc, not themselves). Alrighty. Well, the chances of finding a deal good enough to justify two fees and postal are probably slim to none.

Thank you JumpingFrog for clarifying another of the nuances I hadn’t gotten down.

Maybe it's clear in the thread but I'm trying to do two things at once here and am confused: if I visit another state e.g. Georgia friends or Wisconsin relatives can I not go to a LGS and buy a handgun to bring home with me? Or is it instead the case that they will refuse to SELL to me because my DL is TX?

TomsTXCHL wrote:...if I visit another state e.g. Georgia friends or Wisconsin relatives can I not go to a LGS and buy a handgun to bring home with me?...

Nope. Federal Law prohibits you from buying a handgun and taking possession in any state except the state where you reside. If you purchase something in another state, it must be first transferred to a Texas FFL and then the transfer to you takes place in Texas.

Repeat, there is no way for an unlicensed individual to purchase a handgun and complete the transfer in any state except the person's state of residence. (The only exception is when you are bequeathed a firearm from the estate another person.)

Jumping Frog wrote:

TomsTXCHL wrote:...if I visit another state e.g. Georgia friends or Wisconsin relatives can I not go to a LGS and buy a handgun to bring home with me?...

Nope. Federal Law prohibits you from buying a handgun and taking possession in any state except the state where you reside. If you purchase something in another state, it must be first transferred to a Texas FFL and then the transfer to you takes place in Texas.

Repeat, there is no way for an unlicensed individual to purchase a handgun and complete the transfer in any state except the person's state of residence. (The only exception is when you are bequeathed a firearm from the estate another person.)

That's amazing to me. So much for gun shops, but if I buy a handgun from my brother in another state to bring home with me, I'm sure as heck not going to get the Feds involved...

goose wrote: It's not that there needs to be an FFL paper trail for a gun to cross state lines, it is that the FFL(s) have to transfer the firearm physically across the state line (using postal services, etc, not themselves).

That's not really true. As an FFL, I _can_ transport firearms across state lines to/from another licensee, but not to a non-licensee.

TomsTXCHL wrote:, but if I buy a handgun from my brother in another state to bring home with me, I'm sure as heck not going to get the Feds involved...

$10,000 fine and 10 years imprisonment.

Be careful of public statements.

Jumping Frog wrote:$10,000 fine and 10 years imprisonment.

Very, very strange indeed.

TomsTXCHL wrote:

Jumping Frog wrote:$10,000 fine and 10 years imprisonment.

Very, very strange indeed.

Loose lips sink ships, etc.

Oldgringo wrote:

TomsTXCHL wrote:

Jumping Frog wrote:$10,000 fine and 10 years imprisonment.

Very, very strange indeed.

Loose lips sink ships, etc.

Let me start by stating the obvious, that I do not advise someone to commit an illegal interstate transfer of a firearm between two non-licensed (non-FFL) people.

Someone might say, "Hey my (Dad, Brother, Grandfather, Sister . . . .) gave it to me. Who would ever know?"

Have the unfortunate day come that you are involved in a law enforcement interaction over that firearm, for example, after a self-defense shooting. Have the LEO take the handgun into evidence. They have the ATF run a trace, and it turns out the original sale was to John Smith up in Oklahoma. You are Robert Smith in Texas. How are you going to answer the question of how you got the gun?

Jumping Frog wrote:Let me start by stating the obvious, that I do not advise someone to commit an illegal interstate transfer of a firearm between two non-licensed (non-FFL) people.

Someone might say, "Hey my (Dad, Brother, Grandfather, Sister . . . .) gave it to me. Who would ever know?"

Have the unfortunate day come that you are involved in a law enforcement interaction over that firearm, for example, after a self-defense shooting. Have the LEO take the handgun into evidence. They have the ATF run a trace, and it turns out the original sale was to John Smith up in Oklahoma. You are Robert Smith in Texas. How are you going to answer the question of how you got the gun?

Once the handgun has changed hands more than once without paperwork you don't have to explain it. Would it get dicey if your brother bought it in OK and you now have it in TX? Maybe. More than likely the police run it to make sure it isn't stolen. I doubt they will chase it down much further than that.

OK a hypothetical: your Okie brother comes to TX and brings his handgun with him. You convince him to sell it for $400 cash; no paperwork. You trust him when he tells you the gun has no criminal history.

What law(s) are broken exactly?

BTW is there a way for an ordinary citizen to look-up a SN on a firearm? Can your local friendly FFL do this?

TomsTXCHL wrote:OK a hypothetical: your Okie brother comes to TX and brings his handgun with him. You convince him to sell it for $400 cash; no paperwork. You trust him when he tells you the gun has no criminal history.

What law(s) are broken exactly?

BTW is there a way for an ordinary citizen to look-up a SN on a firearm? Can your local friendly FFL do this?

Federal law requires that transaction to go through a FFL. If you are looking for the exact reference or link to the code, I can't give you that but I'm sure OldCannon can.
Now if your brother had a friend in OK who was moving to TX and sold to him and once that friend got to TX and decided he didn't want it anymore and sold it to you, technically that would not violate any laws assuming he was a OK resident when he bought it and a TX resident when he sold it and he did not buy it for the express purpose of selling it to you (or something like that).
The fact is (given the way people move around these days) a gun can legally make its way from one owner to another owner (and so on) through a number of states without paperwork. This makes it extremely difficult for the government to make a case unless you open your mouth or leave some kind of paper trail. Not advocating anyone circumventing the law, just stating what a prosecutor would run up against in a lot of cases.

TomsTXCHL wrote:OK a hypothetical: your Okie brother comes to TX and brings his handgun with him. You convince him to sell it for $400 cash; no paperwork. You trust him when he tells you the gun has no criminal history.

What law(s) are broken exactly?

Section 478.29. Have fun reading the document that my wife refers to as "The Other Holy Book" (edit: Here's the link! http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-t ... 478-29.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

TomsTXCHL wrote:BTW is there a way for an ordinary citizen to look-up a SN on a firearm?

No, not really. Although http://www.hotgunz.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is about as close as you can get without calling local law enforcement.

TomsTXCHL wrote:Can your local friendly FFL do this?

Oddly enough: NO. This is an extremely sore point for many FFLs that deal in used firearms, particularly pawn shops (some pawn places can do a check online).

That being said, please keep in mind that you may call your local law enforcement and ask them to run a firearm serial number to see if it's stolen. They will need the make, model, and serial number. This needs to be done BEFORE you pay for the firearm though, because the local PD isn't going to reimburse you for the toy they're about to take away from you