Another Gun "Spokesman"

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seamusTX
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Re: Another Gun "Spokesman"

Post by seamusTX »

rp_photo wrote:Perhaps it would be a good thing to remove all references to "nighttime" and have consistent laws 24/7.
If they were to do that, it would end up with no use of deadly force for non-violent property crimes. Texas is about the only state that still allows the use of deadly force for non-violent property crimes (horse thieving at night, etc.).

My point in this thread is that some internet lawyers continually confuse burglary, robbery, and non-violent theft. An armed home invasion is robbery, and justifies pulling out all the stops.

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Re: Another Gun "Spokesman"

Post by baldeagle »

jayinsat wrote:This burglary happened during the afternoon. If I understand this section of the law right, you would not be covered. IANAL however.

For me, morally, I still would not shoot over property for someone fleeing away from me outside. Again, just my view. To each his own.
You would be wrong. There is no daytime prohibition against using deadly force in case of a burglary.

Texas Penal Code 9.42 reads, in part:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B)to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
Note that theft during nighttime is probably what you are thinking of, but burglary does not have a similar prohibition, nor does robbery or aggravated robbery.
Sec. 30.02. BURGLARY. (a) A person commits an offense if, without the effective consent of the owner, the person:

(1) enters a habitation, or a building (or any portion of a building) not then open to the public, with intent to commit a felony, theft, or an assault; or

(2) remains concealed, with intent to commit a felony, theft, or an assault, in a building or habitation; or

(3) enters a building or habitation and commits or attempts to commit a felony, theft, or an assault.

(b) For purposes of this section, "enter" means to intrude:

(1) any part of the body; or

(2) any physical object connected with the body.

(c) Except as provided in Subsection (d), an offense under this section is a:

(1) state jail felony if committed in a building other than a habitation; or

(2) felony of the second degree if committed in a habitation.

(d) An offense under this section is a felony of the first degree if:

(1) the premises are a habitation; and

(2) any party to the offense entered the habitation with intent to commit a felony other than felony theft or committed or attempted to commit a felony other than felony theft.
Texas Penal Code 31.03(e)(3) states that theft is "a Class A misdemeanor if the value of the property stolen is $500 or more but less than $1,500;"

Anything else is felony theft. So if you enter a home and steal $1500 or more of the contents, you have committed felony theft which meets the definition of burglary and exposes you to the potential use of deadly force to stop you from committing the offense or prevent you from escaping with the stolen goods. If you steal less than $1500 dollars, you have committed theft, which still meets the definition of burglary.

The moral aspect is one each individual must decide for themselves. I personally would have no problem shooting a burglar who was fleeing my home or my neighbor's home and the law allows me to do that.
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Robert*PPS
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Re: Another Gun "Spokesman"

Post by Robert*PPS »

Joe Horn anybody?
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Re: Another Gun "Spokesman"

Post by jayinsat »

Robert*PPS wrote:Joe Horn anybody?
:iagree: Thank you! That's exactly what I was thinking about when I responded to this post originally. My CHL instructors showed us the news video during class and we had a lengthy discussion about it.

All that said, to each his own. I wouldn't risk it.
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Re: Another Gun "Spokesman"

Post by jmra »

Robert*PPS wrote:Joe Horn anybody?
Didn't he retire? I threw a party when the Saints cut him...oh, you mean that other Joe Horn.
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Robert*PPS
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Re: Another Gun "Spokesman"

Post by Robert*PPS »

jayinsat wrote:
Robert*PPS wrote:Joe Horn anybody?
:iagree: Thank you! That's exactly what I was thinking about when I responded to this post originally. My CHL instructors showed us the news video during class and we had a lengthy discussion about it.

All that said, to each his own. I wouldn't risk it.
Yes sir...we studied this case in our class as well. The instructor made several points about this case of which the 2 big ones were: 1) Everything you say to 911 is recorded, and you can certainly talk yourself into prosecution; and 2) you may end up being justified, but that doesn't mean that you will not have to spend a tremendous amount of time and money defending your actions in a court of law. Is it worth it? To each their own answer I guess. Me? I don't think it would be worth it.
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Re: Another Gun "Spokesman"

Post by K.Mooneyham »

Do not take my following statement as me saying I would shoot someone for merely taking property, as I am not saying anything of the sort. However, the political left HATES wide-latitude self-defense for several reasons. One of those is that, IMPO, they see theft and robbery as "redistribution of wealth", one of the tenets of their believe system. So, they want to do anything they can to protect those that would take someone else property. I find that reprehensible. I grew up dirt poor and yet I didn't just go around taking things that didn't belong to me. One of the lessons I reiterated again and again to my kids was "if it ain't yours, don't touch it". So, while it may not be the smart thing, in today's wonderful political climate, to use force and/or deadly force, to stop someone from taking your possessions, I don't have a moral disagreement with someone who does use force and/or deadly force to do so. The burden, IMPO, should be on the one who decides to take something that isn't theirs.
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Re: Another Gun "Spokesman"

Post by baldeagle »

Joe Horn is a poor example. His mouth got him in trouble. If he had simply called 911 and reported the burglary, then confronted and shot them, I doubt he would have even been charged.

Here's a tip. A 911 operator is ALWAYS going to tell you not to shoot the perp. Leave them out of it. Just report the facts. And yes, I would shoot a burglar, and I would have no compunction about doing it and no guilt feelings afterwards. There is nothing morally wrong about shooting someone who is committing a crime. Our society has taught us that, but it's a lie.

You need to remember. Almost 80% of people shot with a handgun in this country survive. So, when you pull your weapon and shoot someone, you are shooting to stop them, not to kill them. As a CHL it is never our intention to kill anyone. (Nor is that the LEOs intention, BTW.) It's to stop the threat. Period.

If you call 911 and say, "I'm going to shoot this guy" or "I'm going to kill this guy", you might as well call a lawyer next, because you have confessed to intent to harm someone. Now what matters is whether shooting them was really truly justified under the law or you just wanted to shoot someone. And if I was a prosecutor, that's EXACTLY the argument I would use against you. And your own words would buttress my case. You might still get off because what you did was legal, but it won't be cheap.

Having a CHL is for DEFENSE, not offense. Keep that in mind, and you will be much less likely to end up fighting for your life in the legal system.

Texas Penal Code 9.21(a) reads "Sec. 9.21. PUBLIC DUTY. (a) Except as qualified by Subsections (b) and (c), conduct is justified if the actor reasonably believes the conduct is required or authorized by law, by the judgment or order of a competent court or other governmental tribunal, or in the execution of legal process."

9.22 reads
Sec. 9.22. NECESSITY. Conduct is justified if:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct is immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm;

(2) the desirability and urgency of avoiding the harm clearly outweigh, according to ordinary standards of reasonableness, the harm sought to be prevented by the law proscribing the conduct; and

(3) a legislative purpose to exclude the justification claimed for the conduct does not otherwise plainly appear.
Imminent harm does not only mean physical harm to you. It means harm to you, to another person or property.

Remember what they did to rustlers in the old west? Do you think they felt bad about it? I'm not saying take the law into your own hands, but if you've caught someone stealing property, the law states that you can use deadly force to stop the theft AND to stop the actor from escaping with the stolen goods.

Saying property isn't worth shooting someone over is an expression of the liberal mindset, which has infected far too many Americans. The next logical step (and some have already taken it) is that shooting someone over physical abuse isn't justified, shooting someone hurting another person isn't justified, shooting someone hurting you isn't justified. Someone recently posted here about a woman who said she couldn't shoot someone if they were killing her. That's the terminus of this kind of thinking. Is that really where you want to head? If so, why do you carry a gun? And what will it take for you to draw and shoot when seconds count?
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seamusTX
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Re: Another Gun "Spokesman"

Post by seamusTX »

Joe Horn was not charged with a crime (though people selling "insurance" would like you to think so). He was no-billed by the only grand jury to consider the case.

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Re: Another Gun "Spokesman"

Post by jayinsat »

I think this a great discussion. In all honesty, I don't know what exactly I'd do in a situation like this. Good to know the law is on my side though.
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Re: Another Gun "Spokesman"

Post by LSUTiger »

When people say "is it worth killing someone over (insert valid legal and/or common sense reason here)" I always counter with, "The real question criminals have to ask themselves is "is committing (insert crime here) worth getting killed for?"

When a criminal commits a crime (no matter how serious or not) they put themselves as well as the victims in danger and must assume responsibility and consequences for their own actions.
Chance favors the prepared. Making good people helpless doesn't make bad people harmless.
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Sometimes I really wish a lawyer would chime in and clear things up. Do we have any lawyers on this forum?
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Re: Another Gun "Spokesman"

Post by anomie »

baldeagle wrote: Saying property isn't worth shooting someone over is an expression of the liberal mindset, which has infected far too many Americans. The next logical step (and some have already taken it) is that shooting someone over physical abuse isn't justified, shooting someone hurting another person isn't justified, shooting someone hurting you isn't justified. Someone recently posted here about a woman who said she couldn't shoot someone if they were killing her. That's the terminus of this kind of thinking. Is that really where you want to head? If so, why do you carry a gun? And what will it take for you to draw and shoot when seconds count?
To me, it's not a justification issue, it's an action/consequences issue. Do I want to potentially spend 10 * x dollars to protect x dollars in property? If they're running out the door with a $1k t.v. I might not want to risk 15 or 20 or 30k in legal expenses, if i know the local d.a. is likely to push a prosecution. Say someone burglarizes my home - If I stay upstairs, where my family is, put my family all in one room and keep the door covered, am I increasing or decreasing my family's odds of survival compared to trying to clear the entire house solo? In that situation, the outcome I want is for my family to be safe, so I personally am not going to fret too much if they take some stuff downstairs. If they steal a bunch of stuff downstairs and walk out the front door, my wife and kids didn't get hurt.

I think that at least some people who say "its not worth it" mean that kind of analysis, rather than a lack of justification. I'd be entirely justified in clearing the house and shooting a burglar in that situation - but I would not feel right leaving my wife and kids all by themselves to do it. That said, I consider the law itself as it is perfectly fine - it's on everybody individually to make that call, and own the responsibility of it, and if someone is legally justified in shooting to protect property (or someone else's property) and does so, I'm not going to cry for the bad guy.

I also think someone who thinks they wouldn't shoot someone if they were being killed would change their mind pretty quick if it were actually happening vs. it being theoretical.
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Re: Another Gun "Spokesman"

Post by jayinsat »

anomie wrote:
baldeagle wrote: Saying property isn't worth shooting someone over is an expression of the liberal mindset, which has infected far too many Americans. The next logical step (and some have already taken it) is that shooting someone over physical abuse isn't justified, shooting someone hurting another person isn't justified, shooting someone hurting you isn't justified. Someone recently posted here about a woman who said she couldn't shoot someone if they were killing her. That's the terminus of this kind of thinking. Is that really where you want to head? If so, why do you carry a gun? And what will it take for you to draw and shoot when seconds count?
To me, it's not a justification issue, it's an action/consequences issue. Do I want to potentially spend 10 * x dollars to protect x dollars in property? If they're running out the door with a $1k t.v. I might not want to risk 15 or 20 or 30k in legal expenses, if i know the local d.a. is likely to push a prosecution. Say someone burglarizes my home - If I stay upstairs, where my family is, put my family all in one room and keep the door covered, am I increasing or decreasing my family's odds of survival compared to trying to clear the entire house solo? In that situation, the outcome I want is for my family to be safe, so I personally am not going to fret too much if they take some stuff downstairs. If they steal a bunch of stuff downstairs and walk out the front door, my wife and kids didn't get hurt.

I think that at least some people who say "its not worth it" mean that kind of analysis, rather than a lack of justification. I'd be entirely justified in clearing the house and shooting a burglar in that situation - but I would not feel right leaving my wife and kids all by themselves to do it. That said, I consider the law itself as it is perfectly fine - it's on everybody individually to make that call, and own the responsibility of it, and if someone is legally justified in shooting to protect property (or someone else's property) and does so, I'm not going to cry for the bad guy.

I also think someone who thinks they wouldn't shoot someone if they were being killed would change their mind pretty quick if it were actually happening vs. it being theoretical.
:iagree:
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Re: Another Gun "Spokesman"

Post by nightmare69 »

I don't think any material property is worth taking someone's life. Even if Im justified under Texas law in doing so. I would not want to have to answer to God about shooting someone trying to steal my CD player out of my truck when my time comes.
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Re: Another Gun "Spokesman"

Post by CoffeeNut »

nightmare69 wrote:I don't think any material property is worth taking someone's life. Even if Im justified under Texas law in doing so. I would not want to have to answer to God about shooting someone trying to steal my CD player out of my truck when my time comes.
When I was younger someone targeted my grandfathers shiny new Ford Explorer for it's CD player. The thief managed to get into it without breaking the windows (doors were locked) and while a police report was filed it didn't stop the theft of tools from the locked garage a week later. Since the thief was getting closer to the house we thought he'd eventually break into the house and we were all pretty leery of the night for awhile after that. I don't think any sane person wants to shoot someone over something so inane as a CD player but all bets are off when you're on my property, stealing my things and lastly aren't doing what I say when I have you at gunpoint.
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