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anygunanywhere wrote:Do what you need to do to pay back every penny.

A large prtion of what we pay for our goods and services is because many do not pay for theirs.

Anygunanywhere

It's the credit cards taking the hit. They'll be fine. (Not advocating irresponsibility but let's call a spade a spade)

Regarding the OP:

This isn't legal advice, but it improved my credit (lots of reading on myfico forums) - send a written letter requesting a debt verification. Then follow up with cease and desist letters if you decide you're not going to take responsibility for your actions and want to be left alone.

gigag04 wrote:

anygunanywhere wrote:Do what you need to do to pay back every penny.

A large prtion of what we pay for our goods and services is because many do not pay for theirs.

Anygunanywhere

It's the credit cards taking the hit. They'll be fine. (Not advocating irresponsibility but let's call a spade a spade)

Nice. So credit card companies can afford the hit.

Calling a spade a spade means to pay your debts. When you sign for a credit card it is legally binding. It is a contract. You agree to pay back the money loaned you by the credit card issuer. I admit that this is not the smartest way to finance your life but a contract is a contract and a man is only as good as his word. Welching on debts speaks of character.

I have lots of experience in this due to relatives.My sister charged up $45,000.00 on my now deceased mother's credit and drove Mom into bankruptcy. Since Mom lived with me we had the credit collection pit bulls all over us to the point where I told them I would kill them if they came around my house. They were tailing me and my wife as we drove around town. Skip tracer bounty hunters hire out to credit collection agencies when the skipper count is low.

Multiple other relatives and ex-relative's credit practices caused me grief simply because Mrs. Anygun and I have credit ratings in the mid to high 800's because we pay our debts.

I stand by my statements. Pay your debts. It builds character.

Anygunanywhere

anygunanywhere wrote:
I stand by my statements. Pay your debts. It builds character.

Anygunanywhere

I couldn't agree more, but not paying a CC bill does not show any causality or correlation to the increase of goods/services. CC companies, and most large corporations build bad debt into their financial statements. If all the accounts receivables were magically brought current, I don't see much reason to lower an optimized price for market and supply chain conditions.

A better reason to pay your debts (vs lowering the cost of goods/services) is because you gave your word that you would - like you said.

gigag04 wrote:

anygunanywhere wrote:
I stand by my statements. Pay your debts. It builds character.

Anygunanywhere

I couldn't agree more, but not paying a CC bill does not show any causality or correlation to the increase of goods/services. CC companies, and most large corporations build bad debt into their financial statements. If all the accounts receivables were magically brought current, I don't see much reason to lower an optimized price for market and supply chain conditions.

A better reason to pay your debts (vs lowering the cost of goods/services) is because you gave your word that you would - like you said.

I see your point.

Unrecoverable debt whether it be credit card issuers or financial institutions lending money for home mortgages or business loans affects all consumers. No matter what sources of the debt we who pay our way are impacted by higher costs. Evidence is the sub-prime mortgage fiasco.

Yes the companies build it into their financial plan but the companies do not pay the cost, the consumer (citizen) does in one way or another. We either pay for it in higher interest rates when we do carry a balance, increased bank fees, taxes, or national debt.

Anygunanywhere

Let me preface this by saying that I agree with the comments made by others that you should pay back debt which you incur. People defaulting on debt cost ALL of us money in the long run.


My current girlfriend had the unpleasant experience of getting saddle with debt that was incurred by her and her ex. He had horrible credit so she cosigned on everything from a boat, to a $70,000 vehicle.

When we first started dating 5 years ago she had a credit score of 520. She now has a score of 730+. Here is how we did it.


#1> Pull your credit report and dispute any and all account that shows you are in default or have paid late. They have to reply in the credit bureau in 30 days to verify the debt. When we did this about 30% of her account simply fell of her report, as the creditor did not answer within the allotted time frame.

#2> Write anyone who is trying to collect from you asking for verification of debt, and verification that they are licensed to collect debt in the state of Texas. Because debt is often sold, the person who is coming after you may or may not be able to verify the debt. We only had one of her accounts that was unable to verify the debt. However, it was a large one. We sent their letter to the three major credit bureaus and "poof" that account was gone as well.

#3> Of the items remaining on your credit report, find out the exact date each one will fall of your report. In general this will be 10 years from your DLA (date of last activity). Important thing to remember here, if you had an account that you owed $1000, that was going to fall of your report in 1 year and you decided today to start paying $50 a month towards you would have a new DLA and it would then be able to stay on your report for another 10 years. It is a little complicated, but we made a chart of her total debt, vs what she could pay, vs, what was going to fall of her report. In general if it was going to fall of her report before she would be able to pay it back, we ignored it.

#4> Of the remaining accounts make an offer in compromise. This only worked with 2 of her accounts, and I had her request a letter in advance of payment that said that the account would be considered paid in full if she paid "XX."


#5> Now we are done to the account that you have to pay in full if you want to see them go away. Simple- call and make arrangements or take out one loan to pay them all off. In her case it was much more advantageous to take out a loan at 13% to pay all of them off and just have one simple monthly payment.

Good luck!

anygunanywhere wrote:

gigag04 wrote:

anygunanywhere wrote:Do what you need to do to pay back every penny.

A large prtion of what we pay for our goods and services is because many do not pay for theirs.

Anygunanywhere

It's the credit cards taking the hit. They'll be fine. (Not advocating irresponsibility but let's call a spade a spade)

Nice. So credit card companies can afford the hit.

Calling a spade a spade means to pay your debts. When you sign for a credit card it is legally binding. It is a contract. You agree to pay back the money loaned you by the credit card issuer. I admit that this is not the smartest way to finance your life but a contract is a contract and a man is only as good as his word. Welching on debts speaks of character.

I have lots of experience in this due to relatives.My sister charged up $45,000.00 on my now deceased mother's credit and drove Mom into bankruptcy. Since Mom lived with me we had the credit collection pit bulls all over us to the point where I told them I would kill them if they came around my house. They were tailing me and my wife as we drove around town. Skip tracer bounty hunters hire out to credit collection agencies when the skipper count is low.

Multiple other relatives and ex-relative's credit practices caused me grief simply because Mrs. Anygun and I have credit ratings in the mid to high 800's because we pay our debts.

I stand by my statements. Pay your debts. It builds character.

Anygunanywhere

I agree, if you charged it then pay for it no matter how long it takes. Irresponsibility is no reason to not pay your debt. The credit card companies do not pay it, the rest of us will.

anygunanywhere wrote:Do what you need to do to pay back every penny.

A large prtion of what we pay for our goods and services is because many do not pay for theirs.

Ericstac wrote:Don't look at debts as you need to be honorable and pay it off. Debt and credit is a business that has turned into a game really. They make a killing doing things what mean feel is just not right.

Two very different world views. One of them is consistent with the 8th Commandment, "You shall not steal." The other is "don't pay them back because you don't like the terms which you agreed to when you borrowed the money." One world view values honor. The other does not. I weep for the future.

We have greater unpaid debt because people are unwise. I was unwise. But I did not make my creditors pay for my unwisdom. If I had done so, there would be literally no difference between that, and Obama's redistribution of your wealth and mine to people who will not work because the government is their mommy and daddy.

Regarding annoying phone calls: Don't answer your phone -Turn the volume completely down on your answering machine. Easy. Check at your leisure - Skip past the ones you know will annoy. Easy.

Get a pre-paid cell phone. They're very inexpensive.

Give out number to those you trust.

If the number gets known by the untrusted - get a new phone.

The Annoyed Man wrote:

anygunanywhere wrote:Do what you need to do to pay back every penny.

A large prtion of what we pay for our goods and services is because many do not pay for theirs.

Ericstac wrote:Don't look at debts as you need to be honorable and pay it off. Debt and credit is a business that has turned into a game really. They make a killing doing things what mean feel is just not right.

Two very different world views. One of them is consistent with the 8th Commandment, "You shall not steal." The other is "don't pay them back because you don't like the terms which you agreed to when you borrowed the money." One world view values honor. The other does not. I weep for the future.

We have greater unpaid debt because people are unwise. I was unwise. But I did not make my creditors pay for my unwisdom. If I had done so, there would be literally no difference between that, and Obama's redistribution of your wealth and mine to people who will not work because the government is their mommy and daddy.

I'm going to have to dedicate a wall in my house where I can frame TAMs words of wisdom. Keep them coming.

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http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/01 ... collection" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

mrvmax wrote:

anygunanywhere wrote:

gigag04 wrote:

anygunanywhere wrote:Do what you need to do to pay back every penny.

A large prtion of what we pay for our goods and services is because many do not pay for theirs.

Anygunanywhere

It's the credit cards taking the hit. They'll be fine. (Not advocating irresponsibility but let's call a spade a spade)

Nice. So credit card companies can afford the hit.

Calling a spade a spade means to pay your debts. When you sign for a credit card it is legally binding. It is a contract. You agree to pay back the money loaned you by the credit card issuer. I admit that this is not the smartest way to finance your life but a contract is a contract and a man is only as good as his word. Welching on debts speaks of character.

I have lots of experience in this due to relatives.My sister charged up $45,000.00 on my now deceased mother's credit and drove Mom into bankruptcy. Since Mom lived with me we had the credit collection pit bulls all over us to the point where I told them I would kill them if they came around my house. They were tailing me and my wife as we drove around town. Skip tracer bounty hunters hire out to credit collection agencies when the skipper count is low.

Multiple other relatives and ex-relative's credit practices caused me grief simply because Mrs. Anygun and I have credit ratings in the mid to high 800's because we pay our debts.

I stand by my statements. Pay your debts. It builds character.

Anygunanywhere

I agree, if you charged it then pay for it no matter how long it takes. Irresponsibility is no reason to not pay your debt. The credit card companies do not pay it, the rest of us will.

"I stand by my statements. Pay your debts. It builds character.”
I will not take issue with your statement. Sounds great and it is true.

“Irresponsibility is no reason to not pay your debt.” This also sounds great and is also true.

A responsible person can also get into financial difficulty through no fault of their own. I know. I have been there. I worked for a large company for fifteen years, hurt my back, and they fired me.

The problem lies with a majority of creditors and collection agencies. In the real world, paying your bills can build character (your character) while totally ruining the rest of your life. In most cases you are dealing with people that have no character, conscience, or morals. They just want as much money as they can get out of you. More than you owe if they can. A lot of them will lie, demand full payment of the balance and nothing else and don’t care if your family has food or anything else.

A few facts: Missed or late payments can be posted on your credit report for seven years from the date of last activity. This can end up costing you 25% interest on a used car and huge deposits for utilities while you are trying to pay your bills.

Let’s say it has been six years and six months and you owe $100.00 and that is due to drop off your credit in six months. Pay the $100.00 and it will stay on your credit report for seven years from that date. Pay $20.00 and it will stay on your credit report for seven years from that date and probably end up costing you thousands.

Cut to the chase--- went back to school, got another job, paid my bills, and retired last July making $114,000.00/yr when I retired and I have a good retirement. I also have excellent credit .

My point is, “Pay your debts. It builds character.” and “Irresponsibility is no reason to not pay your debt” sound good and are both true, but in the real world most collection agencies will try to use your sense of responsibility to get as much out of you as they can and you may end up so far in the hole you may never get out.

I would say “try to pay your debts but do what is best for you and your family”.

What is best for you and your family often devolves to doing what is best for your kids, and the best thing we can do for them, besides loving them without condition, is to model responsible behavior. After all, our kids become what we teach them to be, and we teach them by modeling behavior. What are you modeling to your kids by spending money you don't have, borrowing to cover those expenses, and then welching on your debts?

The Annoyed Man wrote:What is best for you and your family often devolves to doing what is best for your kids, and the best thing we can do for them, besides loving them without condition, is to model responsible behavior. After all, our kids become what we teach them to be, and we teach them by modeling behavior. What are you modeling to your kids by spending money you don't have, borrowing to cover those expenses, and then welching on your debts?

Hi TAM

I don’t know if that was a reply to my post but as I stated, I paid all my debts. I am glad I was able to but some people may not be as fortunate as I have been.

I do not know anyone that can go through life without incurring debt. I suppose some people can buy a house, car etc. and pay up front but I am not of that economic level.
Credit is a trap. One that banks and lenders go to great lengths to make it easy to fall into.

As a matter of fact, in many places a person can’t get a hotel room and pay cash without showing a credit card at check in. Interest rates for an auto loan, house mortgage and now even insurance rates depend on a person’s “credit score”.

Some jobs require employees to have credit cards. I never was well off enough to pay for my travel, lodging, meals and other expenses for a month then wait to be reimbursed by my employer. On long stays, an employee could have two or three months of expenses tied up waiting for expense vouchers to be processed.

Paying ones debts and providing a good example to one’s children is a commendable goal but if a person falls on hard times and if it comes down to a choice, putting food on the table and a roof over the child’s head takes priority in my book.

VoiceofReason wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:What is best for you and your family often devolves to doing what is best for your kids, and the best thing we can do for them, besides loving them without condition, is to model responsible behavior. After all, our kids become what we teach them to be, and we teach them by modeling behavior. What are you modeling to your kids by spending money you don't have, borrowing to cover those expenses, and then welching on your debts?

Hi TAM

I don’t know if that was a reply to my post but as I stated, I paid all my debts. I am glad I was able to but some people may not be as fortunate as I have been.

I do not know anyone that can go through life without incurring debt. I suppose some people can buy a house, car etc. and pay up front but I am not of that economic level.
Credit is a trap. One that banks and lenders go to great lengths to make it easy to fall into.

As a matter of fact, in many places a person can’t get a hotel room and pay cash without showing a credit card at check in. Interest rates for an auto loan, house mortgage and now even insurance rates depend on a person’s “credit score”.

Some jobs require employees to have credit cards. I never was well off enough to pay for my travel, lodging, meals and other expenses for a month then wait to be reimbursed by my employer. On long stays, an employee could have two or three months of expenses tied up waiting for expense vouchers to be processed.

Paying ones debts and providing a good example to one’s children is a commendable goal but if a person falls on hard times and if it comes down to a choice, putting food on the table and a roof over the child’s head takes priority in my book.

Hi VoiceofReason, yes my answer was in response to your previous post. I can't say that I disagree with what you've written here, and in my previous posts in this thread, I've confessed my own past with credit difficulties. But the thing is, I brought those on myself through making poor choices. I believe in a redemptive God. In the secular sense, redemption means that we redeem our futures by confronting the past, learning from it, and redirecting the arc of our lives. It means that, going forward, whenever we are confronted with having to make a choice between two or more alternatives, we choose that which redeems our future. (BTW, I've never had trouble getting a hotel room with just a common Visa ATM card linked to my checking account.)

I agree that credit is a trap, and it once had me in its snare. But sometimes it traps you another way......as in, if you pay cash for everything, you become a poor credit risk, despite having enough money to buy things without credit. God has afforded me an opportunity to avoid debt for the past few years. Ironically, and it's a funny thing that makes me smile and shake my head, but I've been living debt free for so long now that my credit score has gone down from what it was, and I actually became a poor credit risk apparently, despite having had good credit before! I view that as a blessing because it forces me to be more disciplined with money. But, I also recognize that I needed to do something to get my credit score back up. I actually went to Lowes to buy a gas grill one day. It was one of the more expensive ones. I was prepared to pay cash for it, but they offered me the chance to get a Lowes card and pay for it that way. I only said "yes" because I knew that I had the cash reserves to pay off the entire balance any time I wanted to. The total amount of the purchase was just under $1,100, and they gave me a $1,200 credit limit. The offer was for zero % interest for the first 18 or 24 months (I don't remember for sure which it was), but instead of paying minimum payments, I sent in $100/month and paid it down in less than a year. Then we needed new blinds about a year ago. (That means, "my wife wanted new blinds.") Again, I had the cash to buy them outright. The total price was just under $1,000. But I thought, why not see if I can use the Lowes card, and get my credit limit increased. So we paid for the blinds with the card, and they increased the credit limit to $2,500. I keep sending in $100/month, and that balance has been paid down. Now, every 5 or 6 months, whenever I'm at Lowes, I'll use that card to make the purchase instead of paying cash, but most of the time I still use cash. I have a current balance of $375, but there is an already scheduled online payment of $100 pending, so that will come down to $275 in a few days.

Now, I said "God has afforded me an opportunity" in that previous paragraph. Here's what that means..... I am not a rich man. I've never been a rich man. I had the blessing (or "good fortune" if you prefer that term) to have sold a house in California at the very height of the RE bubble there, a week before the bubble popped, at the time we moved to Texas. We were the kind of home owners who really struggled just to meet the mortgage payments, particularly since we also living debt free. In the interest of full disclosure, we did have the balance on one car loan which we were still paying off.....but we were otherwise free of credit card debt or other kinds of loans. The blessing is this: In the 7 years we owned that house, it literally slightly more than tripled in value above what we paid for it. So when we sold it, we paid off our mortgage, and we left California "cash rich." The first thing we did when we got here to Texas was to spend most of the profit in the sale of our California home on the cash purchase of a home in Texas. That freed us of every having to worry about losing our home again, and as events eventually turned out, that was a prescient decision. When we got here, I had a decent paying job. With the profit from our California house, we could have easily used it as a down payment to buy a home twice as large as the one we eventually did buy, and could have easily made the payments on the mortgage. As it happened, my employer committed suicide 18 months after we got here, and his widow sold off the company assets, and I was out of work. Praise God that we had decided to buy ourselves a more reasonable home outright instead.

Easily the single biggest payment most people have to face every month is the rent/mortgage. We've been spared that. Our vehicles are paid off. I became self-employed after I lost that job, but my business, which took off like gangbusters during the first few months, really struggled hard for the first 4 years in a very tough economy, and it is just now starting to really turn around. The fact that we are debt free with the exception of that Lowes card means that we live with fairly low overhead compared to other people, but even so, we still pay the same prices for gas, food, etc., etc., not to mention taxes as everyone else (and pretty soon, Obamacare fines too). I don't see how other people do it, and I can fully appreciate how much of a struggle it must be. We do without some things we would like to have, but we have a relatively comfortable existence compared to how difficult it is for some others. I do without health insurance because it is waaaaaay outside of my ability to pay for it without going into debt. When insurance rates double or triple over the next 2 or 3 years as most people expect them to, we'll have to discontinue my wife's coverage too; and here we are, two late middle aged people getting into the age group where our medical needs will begin to increase, and right when the cost of meeting those needs have been driven far out of our reach by poorly conceived legislation, and the cost of coverage is even further out of reach.

My point of all this long ramble (I'm up typing because I can't sleep, so please forgive me) is that I am exquisitely aware of just how hard many people have to struggle to make ends meet, and I very much empathize with them. But that still doesn't change the fact that we are all responsible for and affected by our choices, and we still have to model life properly to our kids, or they have a significant risk of generationally repeating our mistakes. This is how generational welfare dependency gets started.

In my first post in this thread, I described how I got out of debt. It was a crushing debt, and we were in exactly that situation you describe......and we had a kid to feed, and I was desperate. I took the honorable way. I paid my debt off. Every penny of it. I sought help, and I GOT help, and the help worked. And my lifestyle actually began to improve immediately and measurably by having gotten the help. At the end of the day, I have a clear conscience....not because I have a broken moral compass and don't care what I see in the mirror, but because I did...the...right...thing and I can look in the mirror and not feel shame.

Spending money you don't have is like an addiction, and you have to approach it and deal with like an addiction. The help is out there, and literally the ONLY thing that keeps people from getting it is pure unadulterated pride. That's it. Pride. "Times may be tough, but by God, I can still put food on my kid's plate. I may feed my kids by stiffing people I owe money to, but by golly, my kids get fed." How many of those people who struggle to feed their kids have a big-screen TV? How necessary is that TV to feeding their kids? How many months could they have fed their kids for on the price of that TV? That's pure pride. But pride is a rich man's luxury. To people who say "don't get help from credit counselors because it will ruin your credit," I offer the following: You don't know what you're talking about. There are for real credit counselors run as non-profits like the one that helped me—Consumer Credit Counseling Services of Los Angeles—whose real mission is to help people discharge their obligations and improve their credit picture. That is what happened to me. Then there are "credit fixers" who are businesses that are operated for profit. Some of them know what they're doing, and others are strictly fly-by-night operations that will jack your credit up even worse. You have to know what you're doing, look at the different alternatives, and then make the right decision. The non-profit that helped me was funded by government grants—one of the few government expenditures that I would not have any problem funding if it means that OTHER people experience the same liberation from the debt burden that I experienced, while still honorably discharging their obligations.

People say, "declare bankruptcy and escape your debt AND improve your credit." You don't really improve your credit that way. All that happens is that creditors will loan you money post-bankruptcy because they know that you can no longer hide behind bankruptcy again for a number of years afterward, and that you HAVE to pay the debt, even if it means that your kids will starve. It only prolongs the agony because MOST of those debtors will not use the opportunity to change their spending habits. In fact, most of those will view it as a free pass—"Whew! I ducked that bullet"—and take the newly offered credit as "free money." It should never be anything but a very last resort AFTER you have exhausted all other means of discharging your debt. Until you have gone to a non-profit debt counselor for help, you have not exhausted all other means of discharging your debt. And the only thing standing in the way of doing that is nothing more than stupid, vain, pride. That's it. Well, if you love your kids—I mean REALLY love your kids—you'll put your pride aside to get help and discharge your debts. They will help you figure out a budget that will let you feed your kids, and even take them to a movie once in a while, AND pay your debt.

The thing is, unless you humble yourself and submit to this process, you're never likely to change your habits and learn to adjust your lifestyle to your income. And a few years later, you'll be right back in trouble again....like the alcoholic who tries to get sober without a 12 step program. Without first confessing that you have a problem and then surrendering to the recovery process, the alcoholic will never get sober. Without first confessing that you have a spending problem (even if you're unemployed) and submitting to the financial redemption process, you'll never get free and clear.

I'm very passionate about this stuff because I have been through the process and I know it works....even for people like me who had to make the decision a LOT of times to feed my kid instead of pay a bill. I once was blind, but now I see.