Start teaching shorter classes now?

[The_Busy_Mom]

correction currant class is 10-15 hours not 8-10 hours.

Mike

Thank you for the correction - mistyped!! Edited to reflect that I actually do know the correct times!!

TBM

[The_Busy_Mom]

Hi TBM! I've been a fan of yours since you joined us here. I don't often have a lot to say, so didn't join for a long time, content to "lurk and learn". Perhaps I should have maintained that model, I seem to have put my foot in it here. Anyway, I appreciate your contribution to my little brain storm, even if we, so far, don't see the issue in the same light.

Now, aside from my failure to convey (for the life of you) why I even ask what I'm asking, which I'll get to in a second, I first want to state again and unequivocally that I am not proposing anything devious, underhanded, or nefarious in any way. I thought I stated clearly that any options should be open and above-board to all involved. That would include the instructor, the student, and the DPS. No matter what any such plan might ultimately look like, if there is a plan at all, it would be meaningless if DPS didn't buy off on it. And by that, I mean any plan which they can endorse, or one for which they cannot provide a legal reason why they can't go along with it.

I say all this because the dire consequences you describe of the three listed risks are quite valid, even probable, if implemented by a devious, underhanded, nefarious dirtbag who: 1) didn't (at least attempt to) involve his peers in the development of the alternative plan his customers asked for, 2) lied directly or by omission to those customers about the plan and its potential pitfalls, 3) has no concern about his credibility, his fellow instructors, or the integrity of the program, and 4) implemented any such plan without getting at least tacit approval from the program manager, the DPS.

You don't know me, so all I can do is assure you that I don't believe myself a dirtbag nor underhanded, devious, or nefarious! I would never do anything to shed a bad light on the CHL program, other instructors, or myself. I am dedicated to the program and to giving my students the best training and the best customer service within my power. A brief stint in LE, a decade as a bookseller, an entire career in IT, and now running a small business have instilled in me a strong sense of the importance of meeting the needs of my customer.

Which gets me to the elusive "why":

In just the past four weeks, I have had sixteen students decide to wait until after September 1st to take their class. Probably an insignificant number to the big city folks, but here in Athens, that number represents a non-trivial sampling. To a person, they asked if they really had to wait that long. Alas, I had to tell them that they did if they wanted the shorter class, and also warn them not to even start the application process with the state, or they would have to take a 10-hour course no matter. Thus, some are still on track with the original plan and resigned to the 10-hour course, and others are left waiting.

Do these 16 students represent an adequate justification for attempting to find a doable work-around? For some, maybe not. To me they do.

I'm not one to answer a customer with "because that's just the way it is".

Is it possible that there is no valid work-around? Of course that's a possibility. Are there really so many unknowns that the very attempt to simply brainstorm a solution is pointless? I don't believe so or I would not have wasted the groups time in asking. I owe it to those that have asked me about it, and to those who will doubtless ask all of us about it in the coming weeks, to at least look into it.

Tomorrow I will attempt to open a dialog with someone at DPS about this, and while I don't relish the thought of tilting at that particular windmill, I'll share any feedback I receive. In the meantime, if anyone has any flashes of insight, please share.

Thanks.

I am not calling you any names, and thought I tried to convey that this isn't a personal thing. If I didn't convey that as I should, let me reiterate. This is not a personal attack - you asked a question, I answered. I understand that you are trying to provide the best customer service to your students, while keeping your financial base stable. If I had 16 students postpone taking the class, then it would be a huge impact in my bottom line. So, in that regard, I definitely feel your pain. And I am not trying to convey anything other than exactly what I say. IMHO, the law does not open itself up for a 'doable work-around'. In this case, there are too many unknowns, and those unknowns are controlled by a department that has a less-than-stellar reputation for conveying information to instructors in a timely fashion. I give props to those at DPS who work day and night to help our program. But quite a few of the instructors on this forum have posted that their biggest worry about this whole thing is getting the information they need in a timely manner. And I have high doubts that DPS would give you tacit approval to work outside of the current law. It is the unintended consequences (my dire consequences, as you have called them) that would be the ultimate risk - no good deed goes unpunished.

Brainstorming for a solution AFTER DPS says there will be no change to curriculum, or now we only teach 1 of the food groups, or there is now a standard curriculum, or the exam is now 25 questions because of the need to only teach 1 food group, would be a much better use of your time than trying to do it now. When I went to class, the DPS Instructors had already developed a curriculum, and were waiting on approval from DPS bosses to distribute that curriculum to instructors. Will that be the case? Only time will tell. But the whole basis of the CHL-100 is to report that the student received the proper training under the current laws/regulations and passed the appropriate exam. IMO, this is up in the air until there is a definitive answer from DPS on how they are going to respond to the situation.

Right now, I am brain storming on what my class will look like at 4-6 hours. What would it look like with just the Force/Laws that relate to carrying? What would it look like with Force/Non-Violent Dispute? How can I combine 2 classes in one day? What costs will be associated with reduction in time? Who is my new target market? Do I have a new target market? What videos can I cut, but still get the message to my students? Am I going to teach class in August? I had realized this several months ago - If reduction in time, August class is going to be bare. So I made sure that I required a non-refundable deposit/small fee for those that choose to cancel in August, while being upfront about the change in the law.

I am sorry we don't see eye-to-eye, and I really hope you get some answers from DPS. I hope you can come back in a week and say, "TBM, I told you so!" I will gladly eat my words. However, if pattern comes to fruition, we will know in August just what changes are being made!!

TBM

[TexasGal]

You could talk to ten different people on the phone and maybe get 10 different answers is my thought. The chain of information does not always seem to function reliably when changes are afoot. If by chance you were told you could follow your idea, I would get that in writing from someone in a position high up enough to be used to defend yourself with. Still, the chances they will let anyone conduct shorter classes now for post Sept 1 applicants is zero IMHO. Intriguing idea though.

[Ericstac]

What I don't get is how all the citizens of Athens, TX know how many hours the class is now and how long it is in Sept? I'm pretty sure I can ask everyone I know the answer and they wouldn't know...and that is including chl holders..

Plus people are really willing to wait 3 months over a few hours?

[Keith B]

correction currant class is 10-15 hours not 8-10 hours.

Mike

10-15 includes range time. New class of 4-6 does not include time on the range.

[dogflight]

Now that's some brain storming! Thanks y'all!

Texasgal wrote:
You could talk to ten different people on the phone and maybe get 10 different answers

And there is probably the biggest "risk factor" of them all, and the most likely show-stopper, if ever there was one.

TBM wrote:
Brainstorming for a solution AFTER DPS says there will be no change to curriculum, or now we only teach 1 of the food groups, or there is now a standard curriculum, or the exam is now 25 questions because of the need to only teach 1 food group, would be a much better use of your time than trying to do it now. When I went to class, the DPS Instructors had already developed a curriculum, and were waiting on approval from DPS bosses to distribute that curriculum to instructors. Will that be the case? Only time will tell. But the whole basis of the CHL-100 is to report that the student received the proper training under the current laws/regulations and passed the appropriate exam. IMO, this is up in the air until there is a definitive answer from DPS on how they are going to respond to the situation.

Now there are some lightening bolts for this storm! A DPS-developed (and mandated) curriculum would have an impact of the highest order. All your points are highly salient about possible problems. Excellent contributions, very helpful, and appreciated. I had not yet considered it in these lights.

Bear in mind, I have not said this was something that anyone SHOULD do, I have simply tossed out some thoughts and asked to discuss them as something that MIGHT be possible.

Ericstac wrote:
What I don't get is how all the citizens of Athens, TX know how many hours the class is now and how long it is in Sept? I'm pretty sure I can ask everyone I know the answer and they wouldn't know...and that is including chl holders..

Plus people are really willing to wait 3 months over a few hours?

I can't speak for the population of Athens in general, but as for my students, they know because I told them. Their time is valuable so delaying something for 90 days that they've likely been "meaning to do" for years in exchange for saving half a day of that time appears to be important to them, yes.

One last thing, this is not a cash flow issue for me. I don't make anything to speak of by teaching CHL. I run a secure destruction business and although I do offer instruction to the general public, I primarily teach CHL to my customers and their employees at a low cost because I think the more of us there are, the safer we will all be.

At any rate, wish me luck as I go about collecting non-committal, non-answers from DPS! (Just poking fun. I'm sure glad I don't have to do their job - either on the streets or on the phone lines. God bless 'em all.)

[nightmare69]

10-15 includes range time. New class of 4-6 does not include time on the range.

I thought I remember reading Cotton say that it included range time, maybe Im dreaming.

[The_Busy_Mom]

10-15 includes range time. New class of 4-6 does not include time on the range.

I thought I remember reading Cotton say that it included range time, maybe Im dreaming.

Nope, shorter class of 4-6 does not include range time. But as with the long version, I bet 4 hours class, with 1 hour range, will be the new norm.

TBM

[Keith B]

10-15 includes range time. New class of 4-6 does not include time on the range.

I thought I remember reading Cotton say that it included range time, maybe Im dreaming.

Busy Mom answered. Don't trust my input, I'm only a Modeartor and CHL Instructor.

[RX8er]

.... I'm only a Modeartor and CHL Instructor.

And your point?

[nightmare69]

10-15 includes range time. New class of 4-6 does not include time on the range.

I thought I remember reading Cotton say that it included range time, maybe Im dreaming.

Busy Mom answered. Don't trust my input, I'm only a Modeartor and CHL Instructor.

You know what they say about forum mods....



No ban please

[Keith B]

10-15 includes range time. New class of 4-6 does not include time on the range.

I thought I remember reading Cotton say that it included range time, maybe Im dreaming.

Busy Mom answered. Don't trust my input, I'm only a Modeartor and CHL Instructor.

You know what they say about forum mods....

[ Image ]

No ban please

Not sure how they got my picture for that one.

[Keith B]

.... I'm only a Modeartor and CHL Instructor.

And your point?

Exactly.

[sugar land dave]

Boy, If I was a Reporter, what A story I could write based on this thread! So many posts here could be taken in many different ways based on point of view. Looking for gray areas and trying to find loopholes to exploit sounds like something for computer hackers not CHL Instructors or CHL holders.

I know that statement sounds about as popular as a creaky old door, but I believe that Charles has been able to help us in the Legislature by being crystal clear and above board in all of his representative dealings with them on our behalf. I think that the last thing that any of us need to do is anything that would appear to be subversive or disruptive of legislative intent.

To come out of this Legislative session with any advances is rather amazing considering the political winds of the last year. We should be grateful for the hard work done for us.

[KC5AV]

10-15 includes range time. New class of 4-6 does not include time on the range.

I thought I remember reading Cotton say that it included range time, maybe Im dreaming.

As originally proposed, 4 hours would have included shooting. It was modified to make it 4-6 hours, not including shooting.