TexasCHLforum.com

glock27 wrote:Ain't big gulps illegal in ny?

A judge ruled that ban was unconstitutional this past week.

So, what was the cop shooting? 9 mm, .40 or .45?




Too soon?


Maybe, if mama had not allowed her son to run around at 3:00 am he would be alive. I am sure that NYC will settle for a million or two.

K.Mooneyham wrote:Is it a Sig knock-off? Looks pretty good.

The Internet (which is never wrong) claims it was originally based off of the Sig 229.

StewNTexas wrote:Great job by the rookie. One shot and one bad guy falls. No warning shots (wait for the public comments later).

That was a warning shot.

Ed4032 wrote:

StewNTexas wrote:Great job by the rookie. One shot and one bad guy falls. No warning shots (wait for the public comments later).

That was a warning shot.

It is exactly the quality of warning shot that we all endeavor to replicate. One shot, one hit, zero collateral damage.
I hope never to need to fire mine in self-defense, but if I do, please God, make my aim as true as that.

ddurkof wrote:So, what was the cop shooting? 9 mm, .40 or .45?




Too soon?


Maybe, if mama had not allowed her son to run around at 3:00 am he would be alive. I am sure that NYC will settle for a million or two.

NYPD carries the G19.

Any guesses as to where the perp got the gun?

Even though the officers appear to have done everything right, they are going to have to live with that kid's death. That's a burden no officer should have to carry, especially at the beginning of their career.

There is definitely a psychological toll it takes when someone with a conscience takes another person's life, even when it is justified. Hopefully, that officer will be able to deal with this and move on with his career.

baldeagle wrote:Even though the officers appear to have done everything right, they are going to have to live with that kid's death. T

hat's a burden no officer should have to carry, especially at the beginning of their career.

Very true. I have been a "peer counselor" for most of my career and prior to leaving CA have responded to a large # of OIS to help the LEO involved as a peer counselor. This is after the rounds have been fired. The golden lining is the fact that I know officers have been helped by the initial intervention as they know that I had already been though a OIS so that lends some credibility. I hope NY has the same type of set up. Some believe it is to "touchy feely" but then they don't get it. There is nothing wrong with taking care of the LEO or soldiers after critical incidents. This is also important for a CHL holder/citizen that uses a weapon in defense. While we didn't have a peer program for the public, I have spoken to victims of these types of incidents as well. It is also important for the families as the spouses often have a hard time with it.

gthaustex wrote:

philip964 wrote:oh and the kid emptied the gun.

No doubt missing his intended target as usual. What on earth was he doing out of jail? Scheduled court appearance for weapon possession and a previous recent arrest in May on attempted murder charges...

Nice shooting by the rookie.

The gun laws are only intended to destroy middle class lives, not put criminals in prison.

mojo84 wrote:There is definitely a psychological toll it takes when someone with a conscience takes another person's life, even when it is justified. Hopefully, that officer will be able to deal with this and move on with his career.

Maybe that's true for some and not for others? I've never killed anyone so I can't speak to that personally, however, in his book, Chris Kyle makes it pretty clear he didn't feel any psychological toll, and he had a conscience, and he killed a lot of people. Now, there definitely would be a psychological toll taken courtesy of our media and legal system. But in a case like this the officer was not only justified, but it's highly probable he prevented this young criminal from killing someone else in the future --something the legal system was apparently unwilling even to attempt. It's also highly probable that if the officer hadn't killed him another thug would have in the not too distant future. I don't see why these officers should feel any guilt, pity, or self-recrimination for killing a thug in the midst of his thuggery.

VMI77 wrote:

mojo84 wrote:There is definitely a psychological toll it takes when someone with a conscience takes another person's life, even when it is justified. Hopefully, that officer will be able to deal with this and move on with his career.

Maybe that's true for some and not for others? I've never killed anyone so I can't speak to that personally, however, in his book, Chris Kyle makes it pretty clear he didn't feel any psychological toll, and he had a conscience, and he killed a lot of people. Now, there definitely would be a psychological toll taken courtesy of our media and legal system. But in a case like this the officer was not only justified, but it's highly probable he prevented this young criminal from killing someone else in the future --something the legal system was apparently unwilling even to attempt. It's also highly probable that if the officer hadn't killed him another thug would have in the not too distant future. I don't see why these officers should feel any guilt, pity, or self-recrimination for killing a thug in the midst of his thuggery.

Police interaction and wartime interaction are two separate things. With a war scenario you can pretty much know who the enemy is you are shooting at, because they are shooting at you or moving in for an attack. A sniper has a specific target and eliminates it. Also, a sniper will usually NOT be going to the location that the insurgent was killed and see the person face-to-face.

For police, the interaction is not as clear always, and you are dealing with someone up-close and personal. You put a face with the body you are looking at. It does play a heavier role in your acceptance of the fact you took a life and you watched that person die right in front of you. When I was a LEO I was involved in two shootings (I was not the shooter, but was a first hand witness.) In both cases before I knew the history of the individuals I witnessed a human being die right in front of me from a gunshot wound that I could have just as easily caused. It really plays on your psyche. Both of these guys were of the type that needed killing. One had hacked his mother and father to death with an ax and the other had a rap sheet as long as your arm for armed robbery and had only been out of prison for the 2nd time for 2 months before he was shot while robbing a quick stop. That was the only thing that helped all of the officers with the acceptance of the event.

I speak as no sort of "expert" in the subject, so this is worth what you paid for it. My experience tells me that regardless of what one says publicly about their actions, it is not the "whole story" about what goes on in their head from time to time. I spent my combat time "in defense of others" so as far as I'm concerned all my actions were justified. That, however, does not mean that certain images, events, etc. don't replay in you head so you can remind yourself that you were in fact "justified." Yes, there are those that will speak of their actions with no apparent ill effects and firm conviction. But, you will still never know what scenarios replay in their mind, from time to time, nor any negative feelings they may occasionally have. MHO.

G26ster wrote:I speak as no sort of "expert" in the subject, so this is worth what you paid for it. My experience tells me that regardless of what one says publicly about their actions, it is not the "whole story" about what goes on in their head from time to time. I spent my combat time "in defense of others" so as far as I'm concerned all my actions were justified. That, however, does not mean that certain images, events, etc. don't replay in you head so you can remind yourself that you were in fact "justified." Yes, there are those that will speak of their actions with no apparent ill effects and firm conviction. But, you will still never know what scenarios replay in their mind, from time to time, nor any negative feelings they may occasionally have. MHO.

Maybe we're talking about different things to some extent --namely, what constitutes a psychological toll? I replay all kinds of things in my head, wondering if I did the right thing --but for those with a conscience this kind of second guessing is natural. I never stop feeling bad about it when my assessment is that I didn't do the right thing, or when I'm uncertain what the right thing was. OTOH, when I'm certain that I've done the right thing, I can usually let go of more self-recrimination and eventually dismiss the second guessing. I don't consider these normal reactions to be a psychological toll --they're just part of being human. To me, something takes a psychological toll when the mental state evoked interferes with my life and ability to function. So, for example, if an officer kills someone in a case like this, and he can no longer function as an officer because he can't be certain that in a future life or death encounter he will be able to employ his weapon, his act has taken a psychological toll.

VMI77 wrote: So, for example, if an officer kills someone in a case like this, and he can no longer function as an officer because he can't be certain that in a future life or death encounter he will be able to employ his weapon, his act has taken a psychological toll.

There are degrees of everything. Even when it comes to the psychology of killing another human being. Just because the psychological toll isn't devastating and career ending doesn't mean it isn't present. That would be like saying going through a toll booth and paying the toll isn't a toll unless it automatically bankrupted the person.

Military training and police training with regard to killing and eliminating the enemy are two different things. Also, not all soldiers are cut out to be snipers from skill, physical and psychological perspectives. We shouldn't discount what all goes on in people's minds.

Here is a good book by Dave Grossman that discusses this issue in depth. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... arcatslair" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not going to argue what may have gone on in Chris Kyle's mind other than to say I suspect he had to deal with some psychological challenges as he went through training and executing his duties whether he discussed it or not in his book. What he did was noble and heroic in my mind.

I can say I've had to draw my weapon a couple of times over the years and if I would have had to take a life, tt would weigh on my mind for ever to some degree even if it was clear cut justifiable.