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Re: Texas DPS going 9mm?
Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:19 pm
by gigag04
"Stopping power" - love this terminology.
Whatever caliber I carry, I also give the rounds a good sprinkling of magic fairy dust and a store them near the pelt of maiden unicorn.
45 or 9 make a far superior choice for a duty or defensive round.
Re: Texas DPS going 9mm?
Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:31 am
by Dadtodabone
gigag04 wrote:"Stopping power" - love this terminology.
Whatever caliber I carry, I also give the rounds a good sprinkling of magic fairy dust and a store them near the pelt of maiden unicorn.
45 or 9 make a far superior choice for a duty or defensive round.
That's an interesting ritual, are you able to achieve significant increases in stopping power?
I'm Roman Catholic so I'm not willing to try your technique, but in the interests of ballistic science, I'd be interested in hearing your results!
I've been admitted to the Honorable Order of St. Barbara and have seen the miraculous nature of her "Law" to wit, "The flight of a projectile does not necessarily conform to theoretical predictions."
I've also recently become a devotee of St. Gabriel Possenti, and store my .45acp near an icon of him. While I haven't had a miraculous experience yet, my son, while using some of the Hornaday Z-Max that was also stored near by, assured me that he had eliminated any threat of a Zombie infestation in S.E. Texas.
Re: Texas DPS going 9mm?
Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:14 am
by Pecos
NO! we only do that with snakes to make it rain!
Actually my wife said there's a dog by our yard gate. I went out to see what it was. the cyote ran about 5 yards when I came out & stopped & turned. Thats when I nailed him with my G19. bullet didnt exit his body.
PS: we have a 87 acre ranch. I wouldnt be doing this in the city!!!!
Im really happy with the 9mm Hornady Critical Duty in +P ammo. I also have the same ammo for my G22 .40
Re: Texas DPS going 9mm?
Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:52 am
by Greybeard
"stopped & turned. Thats when I nailed him with my G19. bullet didnt exit his body."
If that shot was broadside, I would be somewhat concerned about the bullet's lack of penetration.
Re: Texas DPS going 9mm?
Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:58 am
by WildBill
gigag04 wrote:"Stopping power" - love this terminology.
The term "stopping power" has given gun magazine writers something "new" to write about for as least the last 50 years.
P.S. Can you spare a little bit of your dust?
Re: Texas DPS going 9mm?
Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:50 am
by texanjoker
JSThane wrote:texanjoker wrote:gigag04 wrote:And the .357sig is a lame choice of duty round. It takes the already bad .40, and makes it more expensive.
I hope they do it.
"bad 40".....I'll stick with my 40 over a 9 anyday. Where I came from we had a lot of success with the 40. We had tried 9 but it didn't have the effective stopping power we were looking for. I'll check with my friend who works DPS and see what he says about this. Could be merely for cost issues.
Given the .357 Sig is a 9mm bullet over a .40 case, you've got the worst of both worlds. Smaller hole AND a smaller magazine capacity.
Also, I'd be rather wary of anyone claiming "effective stopping power" for any pistol round, short of the .44 Magnum. Pistols just flat don't have effective stopping power in and of themselves; only if you knock the pins out from under an attacker or get a hit in the central nervous system will he be "stopped," and not always then. Even the much-vaunted and revered .45, my own favorite semi-auto pistol cartridge, won't "stop" anything unless it breaks a femur or hip, severs the spine, or bounces in the brainpan. It just leaves a slightly bigger hole. So, I either want to make bigger holes, or more of them.
And yes, I'm stuck with a .40 per department issue.
Other large agencies in SO CAL had the 9mm. When their officers complained enough about lack of stopping power, they allowed 40 and 45. Hundreds went out and bought their own. LAPD was one of the first after the Hollywood incident. I could carry an issued 9mm ruger but no thanks. I'll stuck with my personally owned glock 23. Everybody has their preference and some feel fine with the 9mm. The 40 has worked for me so I'll stick with it. If I were to carry a 9 on duty it would be a glock 19 or 17.
I think a lot of agencies going back to 9mm is purely a cost issue as well. 9mm is cheaper then the other calibers, and if it affords more range time that can be a win as well.
I may sign up for one of the 1911 transition classes for the heck of it. I doubt I'll switch, but the class seems fun.
Re: Texas DPS going 9mm?
Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:00 pm
by jmra
texanjoker wrote:
I think a lot of agencies going back to 9mm is purely a cost issue as well. 9mm is cheaper then the other calibers, and if it affords more range time that can be a win as well.
I understand the argument about the advances in HP technology making the 9 better than it was, but that same tech has also been applied to other rounds including the .40 making it better than it used to be. I do understand the available round count difference between the .45 and 9, but it just isn't nearly as significant between the 9 and .40.
Hope people continue the new found luv fest with the 9 as it leaves more .40 on the shelf for me.
Re: Texas DPS going 9mm?
Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:19 pm
by longdog
I remember years ago when many departments went to 9mm from revolvers because of the higher capacity. After several years, many of those then changed to 40,357 sig or 45 after finding 9mm "inadequate". Are the newer rounds that much better or are we looking at another trend brought about by commercial hype?
Re: Texas DPS going 9mm?
Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:29 pm
by The Annoyed Man
longdog wrote:I remember years ago when many departments went to 9mm from revolvers because of the higher capacity. After several years, many of those then changed to 40,357 sig or 45 after finding 9mm "inadequate". Are the newer rounds that much better or are we looking at another trend brought about by commercial hype?
9mm hardball pokes pencil sized holes into people, and early 9mm hollowpoints........Winchester Silvertips, for instance...... would fail to expand properly either because of bullet failure or because of obstacles like windshields and heavy clothing, etc. The hollowpoints ended up behaving much like hardball. In fact, I believe that overpenetration was an early problem for that reason. But bullet design has come a long way in the last 35-40 years, and 9mm performs much better than it used to.
Gun-Tests Magazine has an interesting article in this month's issue about 9mm choices for short-barreled carry pistols:
http://www.gun-tests.com/issues/25_10/f ... 087-1.html (subscription required to read whole thing.) They gave their highest score to the Speer 124 Grain +P Gold Dot, saying:
Speer Gold Dot 124-grain +P Short Barrel JHP 23611, $22.49/20 (Midway 216634)
The current ammunition shortage almost prevented this load from appearing in these pages. Most of the others were on hand. The Speer load was difficult to obtain, but then everything is at present. The Gold Dot design is tweaked for extra performance in the short-barrel gun. The +P rating increases velocity over the standard Gold Dot, and the bullet features a softer core. Expansion and penetration were excellent. This is a solid choice for all-around use. Expansion is the greatest of any load tested, and accuracy was excellent.
Our Team Said: This load is specifically intended for short-barrel use, and as a result of careful development and quality manufacture, it was the overall pick of our raters.
Gun Tests Grade: A+
Re: Texas DPS going 9mm?
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:40 am
by RogueUSMC
WildBill wrote:gigag04 wrote:"Stopping power" - love this terminology.
The term "stopping power" has given gun magazine writers something "new" to write about for as least the last 50 years.
P.S. Can you spare a little bit of your dust?
[youtube]
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5bf9lUdRWFA[/youtube]
Re: Texas DPS going 9mm?
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:21 am
by MechAg94
I thought the DPS used the P220. Maybe that was someone else.
For me, I was on a kick to find 40 caliber carry pistols. I finally just decided the extra harsh recoil was not worth the loss in capacity for not a whole lot more performance. If I want to switch to a bigger round, I'll go whole hot to the 45 ACP.
Re: Texas DPS going 9mm?
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:03 pm
by longdog
Interesting comments everyone. Thanks for the replies.
Re: Texas DPS going 9mm?
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:20 pm
by texanjoker
longdog wrote:I remember years ago when many departments went to 9mm from revolvers because of the higher capacity. After several years, many of those then changed to 40,357 sig or 45 after finding 9mm "inadequate". Are the newer rounds that much better or are we looking at another trend brought about by commercial hype?
I worked with a guy back when we still carried wheel guns. He was in a shootout with a meth head armed with a fully auto mac 11? He had fired 3 of 6 and took cover behind his car to reload knowing he was at least half way empty. Unfortunately the BG took advantage and charged him, shooting him several times. He lived though.
Re: Texas DPS going 9mm?
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:54 pm
by Pecos
Really I think 9MM .40 & .45 are all good calibers.
I wouldnt think the DPS Troopers would go to 9mm just to save money when there lives are on the line. But stranger thing have happened, maybe that IS the only reasing there switching.
Re: Texas DPS going 9mm?
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:17 pm
by WildBill
Pecos wrote:Really I think 9MM .40 & .45 are all good calibers.
I wouldnt think the DPS Troopers would go to 9mm just to save money when there lives are on the line. But stranger thing have happened, maybe that IS the only reasing there switching.
What is the reason for DPS going to .357Sig in the first place?