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stevie_d_64 wrote:

NguyenVanDon wrote:Me and a group of friends are trying to persuade another friend in the group to get sprayed with pepper spray as a live test. The pot is growing fast up to $150+. So far, it's not a go yet. I think if more money is added into the pot, he will consider on doing it. Here's the rules we came up with:

- 2 multiple burst of Police Magnum OC-17% Pepper Spray.
- Must let Pepper Spray soak in for 30 seconds before the treatment stage.

We are planning on to get this on video, so I can upload it on the net for ya fellas to enjoy your laughing your asses off . I'll keep ya updated on this when he gives a thumbs up.

My opinion...(all previous levity and kidding aside)

I believe that game is an extremely poor idea...

Agreed,


This is not something to do for entertainment. Please reconsider.

I know that an officer asked for MILK to put on the victim of an OC spray.
They didn't have any, so they went with the saline....

On the positive side, the unruly person was a completely docile individual for remainder of the 14 hour trip..... !

~Bill

I learned what I know in OC certification years ago as well. Saline kind of works, just remember that the base component of any OC type compound is oil based, hence, non water soluable.

Bad idea man, unles syou really know what you and he are getting into...

SC1903A3 wrote:Now for the big question : If you are sprayed with OC are you justified in using deadly force? Can you articulate why deadly force was justified? I'll let a few of you give your thoughts first.

I guess now that I am on a serious kick tonight...(very unusual, I know)...

I would say that if you are rendered incapacitated to the point where you may not effectively, or safely defend yourself in the use of deadly force, and you reasonably believe it is necessary to use that level of force to stop a continuing attack...

I do not believe you should be charged or prosecuted for any unfortunate collateral (for lack of a better term) damage you may inflict in the course of defending yourself...

I don't know if I have ever heard of a person using pepper spray on a potential (non-LEO) victim to accomplish an illegal activity...Other than Lisa Nowak (former astronaut)...

Now, having never been pepper-sprayed with that, or the O.C. stuff, I cannot imagine how incapacitated I would be...So I cannot qualify a personal threshold on the realities of an attack like this...

But then again, LEO's would know the odds better than I, if a criminal would prefer using this substance to do whatever it is they intend on doing after I was exposed to this stuff...

To me this whole senario is a very close combat situation, and the reaction may be very up close and personal regardless of the level of incapacitation...

Just my 2 centavos...

NguyenVanDon wrote:Me and a group of friends are trying to persuade another friend in the group to get sprayed with pepper spray as a live test. The pot is growing fast up to $150+. So far, it's not a go yet. I think if more money is added into the pot, he will consider on doing it. Here's the rules we came up with:

- 2 multiple burst of Police Magnum OC-17% Pepper Spray.
- Must let Pepper Spray soak in for 30 seconds before the treatment stage.

We are planning on to get this on video, so I can upload it on the net for ya fellas to enjoy your laughing . I'll keep ya updated on this when he gives a thumbs up.

As an attorney, I have to join the folks who are warning against this experiment. LEO's have to be trained and certified to use OC and staging a contest or experiment by untrained, uncertified people could cause some or all of you major legal problems. I know you guys have no intent to injury anyone, but "I didn't mean to" is a lousy defense. I know I sound like a cynical old lawyer, but I've defended or sued many people who never intended the final result. I'd hate to see you in that situation.

If you go ahead with the experiment, don't post a link here. I don't want TexasCHLforum in anyway involved with this project. (That too should give some insight as to how seriously I view this experiment.)

Please don't think I'm tying to come down on you, I just don't want to see an innocent experiment turn really bad.

Chas.

Why not learn from people who get hit with pepper spray and tear gas on a regular basis?

http://blackcrosscollective.org/OCTrials

http://www.gnn.tv/B11748

SC1903A3 wrote:Now for the big question : If you are sprayed with OC are you justified in using deadly force? Can you articulate why deadly force was justified? I'll let a few of you give your thoughts first.

Hm. Interesting question. And Stevie put a further spin on it. In an of itself, I can't see that deadly force in retaliation to a squirt could in any way be justified. But...

OC is dirt cheap, and you don't need any sort of background check to buy it (maybe a driver's license if you look 16). If you were to use that as your mugger's tool of choice, it puts me, the CHLer, in a pickle. If you have the good stuff and I really am going to be essentially incapacitated within 10 to 20 seconds, I not only stand to lose my wallet but, more importantly, I'm unable to defend against more dangerous assault (like kicks to the head to shut me up) and I stand a very good chance of having my firearm stolen.

If you orally threaten me first ("Gimme your money or your goin' down") and I see that you have a weapon--a gun, a knife, maybe even a piece of galvanized pipe--in addition to the OC, my decision process would likely be more clear.

But what if you don't say a word and all I see are empty hands and that little 2.5-ounce cylinder with liquid coming out of it? Not a good mugging tactic in a crowded area, but I can think of a number of scenarios where it might work and be difficult to defend against.

If the attacker was otherwise unarmed, I think there'd be a real uphill battle defending a 2-second Gold Dot Mozamique drill on the guy, no matter what his subsequent intentions seemed like they might have been. But if the galvanized pipe were waiting in his pocket instead of his hand, if you wake up at all it could be in the hospital with a funny new shape to your skull.

I haven't really thought about OC as the criminal's sole weapon of choice. I'll be interested to see if our experienced legal authorities have an opinion.


As for the "experiment," I gotta chime in with, "Don't do it." Just keep searching Youtube. Some idiot will do it and film it.

Last, Fox also makes an OC decontaminant called SUDECON. You can Google it.

SC1903A3 wrote: Now for the big question : If you are sprayed with OC are you justified in using deadly force? Can you articulate why deadly force was justified? I'll let a few of you give your thoughts first.

I'll just say this. Unless you are OC certified you cannot even explain what level of force OC is. Hearsay is not sufficient. If you are not certified you have no idea how it will effect you.

That said, a non-LEO is going to have a different standard than a cop due to training, duty, etc.

Cheaper Than Dirt sells an OC neutralizer.
I don't know anything about it, just saw it in the retail store last week

Here's an article I found comparing treatment methods.

Bottom line was time was the only thing that made a difference.

[from http://www.aemj.org/cgi/content/abstrac ... pl_1/S46-a]
A Randomized, Controlled Trial Comparing Different Treatment Regimens Following Oleoresin Capsaicin (Pepper Spray) Exposure
Robert Hennessy, J. Dave Barry, John Ward and John G. McManus

San Antonio Uniformed Services Health Education Consortium, San Antonio, TX

ABSTRACT

Objective: Oleoresin capsicum (OC), an inflammatory agent, is a derivative of hot cayenne peppers used as a defensive and incapacitating agent. Exposure to OC results in irritation and inflammation of the mucous membranes. The purpose of this study was to compare various topical agents for decreasing pain related to OC exposure.

Methods: We performed a single-blind, randomized human experiment evaluating the effectiveness of 5 different regimens for the treatment of topical facial OC exposure in volunteer adult law-enforcement trainees. Forty-nine adults consented for the study and were exposed to OC during a routine training exercise. Following exposure to OC, subjects underwent a 2-minute training exercise and then were allowed to self-decontaminate with tap water. After decontamination, subjects rated their pain using a 10-cm visual analog scale (VAS). The subjects were then randomized into one of 5 different treatment cloths soaked with one of 4 different substances (Maalox, 2% lidocaine gel, baby shampoo, and milk) or 1 control group (water). Subjects were observed for 60 minutes and allowed to use as many towels as desired. Subjects' pain was documented every 10 minutes using the VAS. Subjects were blinded to previous VAS recordings and treatment regimens. A 1.3-cm improvement was considered clinically significant.

Results: 45 men and 4 women with an average age of 24 were enrolled in the study. Two-factor analysis of variance (ANOVA) (treatment, time) with repeated measures on one factor (time) was performed. There was a significant difference in pain with respect to time (p < 0.001), but no significant interaction between time and treatment (p > 0.05). There was no significant difference in pain between treatment groups (p > 0.05).

Conclusions: In this study there was no significant difference in pain between different treatment groups for pain relief secondary to facial OC exposure. Time after exposure appeared to be the best predictor for decrease in pain.

Here's a link to an article on the effects of pepper spray. It is fairly technical.

http://www.nopepperspray.org/health_haz ... y_ncjm.htm

(the 'nopepperspray.org' site seems to be against using pepper spray on non-violent protesters, not against pepper spray in general)

Keith

txinvestigator wrote:

SC1903A3 wrote: Now for the big question : If you are sprayed with OC are you justified in using deadly force? Can you articulate why deadly force was justified? I'll let a few of you give your thoughts first.

I'll just say this. Unless you are OC certified you cannot even explain what level of force OC is. Hearsay is not sufficient. If you are not certified you have no idea how it will effect you.

That said, a non-LEO is going to have a different standard than a cop due to training, duty, etc.

You know with my spin, and your opinion, I have to say I am at a loss..

First, does anyone know if there are any stats on the criminal use of OC spray used in the commission of any felony crime???

I have to say that personally if I am sprayed with this or any other incapacitating spray or chemical, I am not going to be a happy camper...But I also know that it may also not "reasonably" warrant the use of force or deadly force to stop the use of such a substance...Where is the line here???

I dunno, you present an interesting conundrum...A police officer may have different parameters for reacting to an attack on them in this manner...

A civilian (CHL or no CHL) may not be under any additional requirements other than what we can do already in the face of such an attack...

I'm not going to worry about the intent of someone using a OC spray on me...I can tell you it will not be insited on my part for someone to do this to me...

I would say that this issue alone would make for another great discussion for PSC day...I think we are pushing it to the legality of how we should react to a chemical attack on our person when we reasonably believe the attack was unwarranted...

Would this be considered an aggravated robbery situation??? If robbery was the intent or goal of the suspect???

Just shooting from the hip with this stuff...Anyone???

stevie_d_64 wrote:

SC1903A3 wrote:Now for the big question : If you are sprayed with OC are you justified in using deadly force? Can you articulate why deadly force was justified? I'll let a few of you give your thoughts first.

I guess now that I am on a serious kick tonight...(very unusual, I know)...

I would say that if you are rendered incapacitated to the point where you may not effectively, or safely defend yourself in the use of deadly force, and you reasonably believe it is necessary to use that level of force to stop a continuing attack...

I do not believe you should be charged or prosecuted for any unfortunate collateral (for lack of a better term) damage you may inflict in the course of defending yourself...

I don't know if I have ever heard of a person using pepper spray on a potential (non-LEO) victim to accomplish an illegal activity...Other than Lisa Nowak (former astronaut)...

Now, having never been pepper-sprayed with that, or the O.C. stuff, I cannot imagine how incapacitated I would be...So I cannot qualify a personal threshold on the realities of an attack like this...

But then again, LEO's would know the odds better than I, if a criminal would prefer using this substance to do whatever it is they intend on doing after I was exposed to this stuff...

To me this whole senario is a very close combat situation, and the reaction may be very up close and personal regardless of the level of incapacitation...

Just my 2 centavos...

Interesting questions.

Is the offensive use of OC against you deadly force?

We know that we can use deadly force when we reasonably believe it is immediately necessary to prevent the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force against us.

The penal code defines deadly force;


Texas Penal Code
§9.01. Definitions.

In this chapter:

(3) "Deadly force" means force that is intended or known by
the actor to cause, or in the manner of its use or intended use is
capable of causing, death or serious bodily injury.


OC is not going to cause death in an of itself, so can it cause serious bodily injury?

TPC 1.07
(46) "Serious bodily injury" means bodily injury that creates
a substantial risk of death or that causes death, serious permanent
disfigurement, or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any
bodily member or organ.


We can also use deadly force when we reasonably believe it is immediately necessary to to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

SC1903A3 wrote:
Now for the big question : If you are sprayed with OC are you justified in using deadly force? Can you articulate why deadly force was justified? I'll let a few of you give your thoughts first.

Depends upon the totality of the circumstances. I have been sprayed numerous times by OC spray. There was the obligatory certification spraying where you are blasted directly in the face and then must draw your weapon and arrest your suspect while holding your eye open with your weak hand. Then there have been the times when we were fighting with suspects we were attempting to arrest and everyone is rolling around on the ground. A responding officers decides to spray the suspect and ends up hitting everyone involved. It seems to always happen just about the time we've finally gotten the suspect's hands under control and have one cuff on - then all heck breaks loose.

That being said it would down to whether or not an officer was in fear of his life by being sprayed with OC. If the suspect sprayed you and then ran away you wouldn't have a reason to use deadly force. (side note - that happened to a couple of security guards in Dallas a few years back and they shot the person that sprayed them as he ran away. The "victim" and his friends were mad at the security guards for "hassling" them at their apartment complex so they decided to run up to them, spray them, and then run off. The security guards were arrested, tried and convicted of homicide.)

Now if they sprayed you, and then starting fighting with you, the LEO would have no problem in articulating how they had to use deadly force because they were afraid that the suspect would gain control of their weapon and use it on them or other bystanders. Again, you always have to weigh in the totality of the circumstances and then be able to properly articulate why you took the action you did.

One of my CHL instructors told our class that once they display OR inform someone that they have a handgun, if that person then makes an attempt to disarm them or even tells them that he is going to take their gun away from them and then moves toward them, they have the right to use deadly force. I'm guessing that if they knew you had a gun, and then sprayed you anyway, the circumstances would be pretty to similar to what I outlined above regarding a LEO.

txinvestigator wrote:Interesting questions.

Is the offensive use of OC against you deadly force?

When in that context, I would say no of course...

But...

We know that we can use deadly force when we reasonably believe it is immediately necessary to prevent the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force against us.

I totally agree...

But would you believe that there could be some doubt raised about how "reasonable" someone could be, who has not been indoctrinated before like Law Enforcement in OC spray used against them, that that person's ability to react reasonably could be in question???

I mean I admited I might be a little angry and in some considerable discomfort if I were put in that situation...This is the basis of my concern about how we should react...

But you sum it up very nicely here:

We can also use deadly force when we reasonably believe it is immediately necessary to to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

All of those situations facilitated by the use of an incapacitating agent that would give a criminal an advantage over another person to commit these crimes...Never mind that the agent used would be considered a less than lethal substance...