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E.Marquez wrote:

suthdj wrote: I dunno maybe the military is held to a higher standard but when I was in the Army I would be brought up on charges if I left my weapon(1ea) unsecure and it was stolen. I am sure he will get in trouble but will he lose rank, money and have to stay at work for a few weeks? doubtful

While a Solider "could" be disciplined with non Judicial or court marshal punishment, unless the act was malicious, repetitive or coupled with some other transgression, UCMJ action is unlikely in most all cases...

Weapons left in the DFAC, PX, vehicles, latrines, USO, and every other place conceivable, and a few that are not has happened in my time.. and only in rare cases were those Soldiers charged with a UCMJ infraction.

I would expect a LEO to face much the same... if they were following established policy, nothing should happen.. If other, then supervisors should look at the whole of the event and pass down correction action, retraining and punishment that fits.

I left the Army in 1990 carrying a weapon in the DFAC,PX, USO was not happening. When you had your weapon it was in your physical position, stacked in formation with a guard or secured in the arms room. No excuse, no options it was your responsibility. Now I suspect with the start of hostilities in the mid-east thing have probably relaxed a bit or maybe I was in some units that had an abundance of discipline.

suthdj wrote:

E.Marquez wrote:

suthdj wrote: I dunno maybe the military is held to a higher standard but when I was in the Army I would be brought up on charges if I left my weapon(1ea) unsecure and it was stolen. I am sure he will get in trouble but will he lose rank, money and have to stay at work for a few weeks? doubtful

While a Solider "could" be disciplined with non Judicial or court marshal punishment, unless the act was malicious, repetitive or coupled with some other transgression, UCMJ action is unlikely in most all cases...

Weapons left in the DFAC, PX, vehicles, latrines, USO, and every other place conceivable, and a few that are not has happened in my time.. and only in rare cases were those Soldiers charged with a UCMJ infraction.

I would expect a LEO to face much the same... if they were following established policy, nothing should happen.. If other, then supervisors should look at the whole of the event and pass down correction action, retraining and punishment that fits.

I left the Army in 1990 carrying a weapon in the DFAC,PX, USO was not happening. When you had your weapon it was in your physical position, stacked in formation with a guard or secured in the arms room. No excuse, no options it was your responsibility. Now I suspect with the start of hostilities in the mid-east thing have probably relaxed a bit or maybe I was in some units that had an abundance of discipline.

I'd say you were in a different army. Or at least one that trained differently then the one I've been in since 1985.. Not since I was in basic training did I see weapons left stacked and a single guard watching them.

Once they came out of the arms room,, they were with us.

Even before "the hostilities " as you call it.. we trained, for weeks at a time with a weapon, it went with us every were we went, DFAC Tent, Motorpool, fighting position, on patrol, in a vehicle.. and that was just on post. ... off site NTC, JRTC, Jungle Training Center Panama, Haiti, ect. It was the same
And yes, In the Army I've been in for a few years now,, Soldiers used a latrine occasionally ..so it went there as well..

Once and awhile they forgot a weapon ... Soldiers that train with them vs stacking them and leaving others to guard, will occasional make a mistake.. And we took care of that at the lowest level.

UCMJ used for basic mistakes, non repetitive training issues is what poor leadership does. Profession, quality leaders, find a way to train, retrain, correct in a positive manner.. Only those with malicious intent or truly non caring to fix there issues need UCMJ action.

E.Marquez wrote:

suthdj wrote:

E.Marquez wrote:

suthdj wrote: I dunno maybe the military is held to a higher standard but when I was in the Army I would be brought up on charges if I left my weapon(1ea) unsecure and it was stolen. I am sure he will get in trouble but will he lose rank, money and have to stay at work for a few weeks? doubtful

While a Solider "could" be disciplined with non Judicial or court marshal punishment, unless the act was malicious, repetitive or coupled with some other transgression, UCMJ action is unlikely in most all cases...

Weapons left in the DFAC, PX, vehicles, latrines, USO, and every other place conceivable, and a few that are not has happened in my time.. and only in rare cases were those Soldiers charged with a UCMJ infraction.

I would expect a LEO to face much the same... if they were following established policy, nothing should happen.. If other, then supervisors should look at the whole of the event and pass down correction action, retraining and punishment that fits.

I left the Army in 1990 carrying a weapon in the DFAC,PX, USO was not happening. When you had your weapon it was in your physical position, stacked in formation with a guard or secured in the arms room. No excuse, no options it was your responsibility. Now I suspect with the start of hostilities in the mid-east thing have probably relaxed a bit or maybe I was in some units that had an abundance of discipline.

I'd say you were in a different army. Or at least one that trained differently then the one I've been in since 1985.. Not since I was in basic training did I see weapons left stacked and a single guard watching them.

Once they came out of the arms room,, they were with us.

Even before "the hostilities " as you call it.. we trained, for weeks at a time with a weapon, it went with us every were we went, DFAC Tent, Motorpool, fighting position, on patrol, in a vehicle.. and that was just on post. ... off site NTC, JRTC, Jungle Training Center Panama, Haiti, ect. It was the same
And yes, In the Army I've been in for a few years now,, Soldiers used a latrine occasionally ..so it went there as well..

Once and awhile they forgot a weapon ... Soldiers that train with them vs stacking them and leaving others to guard, will occasional make a mistake.. And we took care of that at the lowest level.

UCMJ used for basic mistakes, non repetitive training issues is what poor leadership does. Profession, quality leaders, find a way to train, retrain, correct in a positive manner.. Only those with malicious intent or truly non caring to fix there issues need UCMJ action.

All those places you listed above

DFAC Tent, Motorpool, fighting position, on patrol, in a vehicle.. and that was just on post. ... off site NTC, JRTC, Jungle Training Center Panama, Haiti,

are not the PX,USO or the mess hall they are normal places I would excpect to see them. Like you I have spent many a night sleeping with my rifle and when I was told to stack an go someplace I did so granted it was very rare. But the point of all this is not about what we did there it is what the FBI standards are or are not. If the agent secured his weapon IAW policy then he did his job, if not he needs some corrective action.

suthdj wrote: what the FBI standards are or are not. If the agent secured his weapon IAW policy then he did his job, if not he needs some corrective action.

Agree..

gigag04 wrote:Once again everyone piles on....


I see nothing saying there were unsecured.


Almost every patrol officer with a rifle keeps it in the car.

Wasn't trying to jump on just pass on what I understand policy is for FBI swat members