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J.R.@A&M wrote:

talltex wrote:I agree wholeheartedly with the last four posts...just wanted to clarify the numbers as quoted, because it didn't add up to me given the entire world population at the start of the 20th century was about 1.5 billion. I think Mojo84's last post is especially relevant

The 625 million pre-20th century murder tally would not apply to the 1.5 billion population at the start of the 20th century. It would apply to the cumulative population up until the start of the 20th century, which would be something larger, right?

Yes...that was my point...the original post said that 625 million had been killed in the 20th century...what it actually said was that was an estimate for ALL of the pre-20th century period.

baldeagle wrote:Everyone should spend some time at RJ Rummel's site. Rummel is a political scientist who studied murder by government. In the 20th century, he put the death total (this is not war dead. This is civilians killed by their own governments.) at 625 million. The 21st century was much, much worse. The Soviets killed more than 61 million. The Chinese over 33 million. The Nazis were pikers by comparison.

It's all laid out, very scientifically, including sources for all the numbers, and he gives a low, medium and high estimate for each one.

Man is evil.

I had a co-worker in the 70's and 80's that was a communist. She even ran for Mayor of Houston on the Socialist Party ticket. She was always ranting about how great communism was and the bad fascists past and present. One day during one of her rants to 3 or 4 of us I asked if she was aware of what atrocities communists had committed vs fascists (bear in mind I am not defending the Nazis) and even though she may have known she stayed quiet. The rest of the group was stunned when I told them how many people Stalin and Mao had exterminated in the name of socialism. My coups de grâce was calling her a capitalist pig when she complained about a renter in one of her rental properties. She pretty much kept her political opinions to herself when I was around after that. The strange thing was she was married to a good old country boy from Olney who would just grin and sometimes shake his head when she went on a tirade. Politics does indeed make strange bedfellows.

Oldgringo wrote:We just finished watching this movie. Religions and other {stuff} aside, how could thinking people do this to other people?

It's a sobering movie, indeed. I've been to the Anne Frank Museum in Amsterdam, and I saw the rooms where they hid, the writings they left behind, etc.

It's amazing what a government can do to the people once they've been disarmed.

History is full of evil leaders who murdered their people. The Anne Frank story hits it home because it shows us the perspective of an innocent child who is caught up in the wave of evil, but there have been millions, probably billions of children in human history who have been in similar positions.

Murder and genocide is easy for governments. Evil, power hungry, self-absorbed leaders, order the murders of their countrymen from the comfort of their palaces, normally handing the dirty work to blood thirsty, sadistic underlings. The guys who initiated the murders are sanitized and removed from it. They are not marching through the mud, pulling crying families apart, and pushing people into gas chambers. They are at home, eating dinner with their families, completely removed from the horrors they are perpetrating. It doubt the gravity of what they have ordered really even strikes them.

The fear rolls down hill. Commanders, soldiers, and police, do what they know is wrong out of fear "I didn't have a choice".

Fellow countrymen close their eyes and stand by lest they be next "I couldn't do anything about it"

None of it can come to pass without a build up of conditioning and propaganda. Boiling frogs as Jim noted.

Today we are in an era of social conditioning. Government has partnered with media and the academy to tell us things that we all know are wrong are actually good. We stay silent out of fear. Fear of losing our friends, our jobs, and being outcasts ourselves. The water is getting awful warm.

When the government, the media, the entertainment industry, and school systems join hands to present lies as the truth, we must reject them immediately, because once we accept a few lies, you can be sure there is much more ahead. The time to resist is before the noose is around our necks. After that, the thrashing about just exasperates it. God has placed in every man's heart the knowledge of right and wrong. If only He had placed the fortitude in our guts to follow what our souls tell us rather allow our minds fear to rationalize that knowledge away.

Redneck_Buddha wrote:I have no illusions about our species, and it doesn't seem to be getting better over time.

I agree with you. It seems to be something fundamental within the species.
How could "that" happen? It's happening right now somewhere in the world. Syria comes to mind. We didn't stop it. I'm not saying we should have, I'm just pointing out that we could have stopped it and didn't.
Two big killing machines: some governments and some organized religions, although they might be indistinct in many circumstances.
Think it's never been done by our government or our religion? Look at history. It's us, just not recently.

I know the question has been asked millions of times but how does one meekly line up one's family and knowingly march with them to their most certain and horrible deaths? One or two, maybe a dozen or a couple hundred, but 6,000,000?

Long ago in a distant state, I was involved with youth soccer. I was very fortunate to have a real live German born assistant to teach skills and the science of soccer to the kids while I managed the parents and administration duties. Dxxxxx and his wife, Wxxxxxxx, vehemently denied the Holocaust ever happened.

Oldgringo wrote:I know the question has been asked millions of times but how does one meekly line up one's family and knowingly march with them to their most certain and horrible deaths? One or two, maybe a dozen or a couple hundred, but 6,000,000?

Long ago in a distant state, I was involved with youth soccer. I was very fortunate to have a real live German born assistant to teach skills and the science of soccer to the kids while I managed the parents and administration duties. Dxxxxx and his wife, Wxxxxxxx, vehemently denied the Holocaust ever happened.

I think some of it is denial. And jimlongley said: boiling frogs.

I still can not comprehend that so many Jews support the anti-gun democrats.

anygunanywhere wrote:If for every innocent person killed, a dictator/tyrant/criminal were killed the number would be much smaller and the world would be a nicer place.

Gun control exists to prevent that.

WildBill wrote:

Oldgringo wrote:I know the question has been asked millions of times but how does one meekly line up one's family and knowingly march with them to their most certain and horrible deaths? One or two, maybe a dozen or a couple hundred, but 6,000,000?

Long ago in a distant state, I was involved with youth soccer. I was very fortunate to have a real live German born assistant to teach skills and the science of soccer to the kids while I managed the parents and administration duties. Dxxxxx and his wife, Wxxxxxxx, vehemently denied the Holocaust ever happened.

I think some of it is denial. And jimlongley said: boiling frogs.

I still can not comprehend that so many Jews support the anti-gun democrats.

Another good one is "Hitler's Children." http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2359085/?ref_=nv_sr_3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's a documentary of the descendants of Hitler's top men, and explores their lives and them dealing with their past. It is very well done, and heart wrenching in spots. Like when Rudolph Hoess' grandson goes to Auschwitz for the first time. Wow.

UpTheIrons wrote:Another good one is "Hitler's Children." http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2359085/?ref_=nv_sr_3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's a documentary of the descendants of Hitler's top men, and explores their lives and them dealing with their past. It is very well done, and heart wrenching in spots. Like when Rudolph Hoess' grandson goes to Auschwitz for the first time. Wow.

Thanks, Rev.
I just added it to our queue.

karder wrote:They are at home, eating dinner with their families, completely removed from the horrors they are perpetrating. It doubt the gravity of what they have ordered really even strikes them.

Ever see "The Boy in the Striped Pajamas"? Speaks to that very issue. If you haven't, watch it...but not alone.

To quote Stalin, "The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic."

Dragonfighter wrote:

karder wrote:They are at home, eating dinner with their families, completely removed from the horrors they are perpetrating. It doubt the gravity of what they have ordered really even strikes them.

Ever see "The Boy in the Striped Pajamas"? Speaks to that very issue. If you haven't, watch it...but not alone.

To quote Stalin, "The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic."

Watched it a few weeks ago. My boys read the book at school.

FML wrote:

anygunanywhere wrote:If for every innocent person killed, a dictator/tyrant/criminal were killed the number would be much smaller and the world would be a nicer place.

Gun control exists to prevent that.

That is the commonly held belief among the sheeple.

Unjust laws are not to be obeyed.

Anygunanywhere

talltex wrote:

baldeagle wrote:Everyone should spend some time at RJ Rummel's site. Rummel is a political scientist who studied murder by government. In the 20th century, he put the death total (this is not war dead. This is civilians killed by their own governments.) at 625 million. The 21st century was much, much worse. The Soviets killed more than 61 million. The Chinese over 33 million. The Nazis were pikers by comparison.

It's all laid out, very scientifically, including sources for all the numbers, and he gives a low, medium and high estimate for each one.

Man is evil.

The 625 million number he quotes is for ALL pre-20th century, and is stated to be a hypothetical estimate.

Yes, I screwed up in my original post and used 20th and 21st instead of 19th and 20th. As for the hypothetical estimate, the problem with Rummel's work is that regimes that slaughter millions don't bother to count them accurately. So, Rummel provides a low, medium and high estimate, all of which are based on scholarly work.

For example, how do we know that 6,000,000 Jews were exterminated? Certainly not because the Nazis kept accurate oven counts. Often these numbers are derived from demographers' work. They take the population before, the average rate of growth that would be expected, and the population after. The "missing" number then is used to estimate how many were killed. Nations like the US keep accurate records (for the most part). Tyrannies do not. Better to simply sweep them under the rug and not mention them. Which, BTW, is an indication that even in their perverted minds, they realize that what they are doing is wrong. They just don't care.