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They need to put up some no nonsense no gun signs and make scissors more readily available. Apparently there either weren't enough signs, the signs weren't clear enough, and/or a shortage of readily available scissors. There's nothing else that can be done. Surely no sane person can advocate trusting military personnel to carry weapons on a military base. That would be dangerous, plus, their uniforms aren't the right color.

Two different Generals are touting that 15 minutes was a "swift" reaction to the shooter. I guess if you say something enough times it becomes truth.

howdy wrote:Two different Generals are touting that 15 minutes was a "swift" reaction to the shooter. I guess if you say something enough times it becomes truth.

I'd like to know if that is 15 minutes response time is measuring how long it took officers to respond to the scene of the initial call or if that is how long it took officers to make contact with the shooter. It's one thing if it took 15 minutes to respond to the 911 call. It's completely different if it took 15 minutes to respond, locate the shooter (who was moving between buildings), and engage that individual.

Cjwglock19 wrote:General got asked several questions about soldiers carrying concealed. Seems they have to sign weapon in and out of armory. Took 10-15 minutes for MPs to get to scene and engage. Just makes you wonder...
I pass Ft Hood everyday going to work, prayers for all involved and their families.

To clarify, are you talking about a general procedure for obtaining a weapon, or are you saying the MP's had to go to the armory and sign out a weapon in order to respond to the shooter?

VMI77 wrote:

Cjwglock19 wrote:General got asked several questions about soldiers carrying concealed. Seems they have to sign weapon in and out of armory. Took 10-15 minutes for MPs to get to scene and engage. Just makes you wonder...
I pass Ft Hood everyday going to work, prayers for all involved and their families.

To clarify, are you talking about a general procedure for obtaining a weapon, or are you saying the MP's had to go to the armory and sign out a weapon in order to respond to the shooter?

Nothing to do with MPs...they are armed.
I meant a soldier who lives on post but has a CHl.

As I understand it, I will use my father inlaw as an example. He is retired army, if he goes aboard post, he must "check-in" his weapon as a chl holder to retrieve as he leaves ( he drops it off at my house usually)My understanding is that if a chl holder lives aboard post, he must go through the process as well. I used the word "seems" as I am not 100% sure! hoped someone could clarify. So I am talking about the soldier policy for concealed weapons. As I assumed, that has been a headline in the news today.

Once again a gun free zone and the shooter turns gun on himself when challenged by armed authority.

Cjwglock19 wrote:

VMI77 wrote:

Cjwglock19 wrote:General got asked several questions about soldiers carrying concealed. Seems they have to sign weapon in and out of armory. Took 10-15 minutes for MPs to get to scene and engage. Just makes you wonder...
I pass Ft Hood everyday going to work, prayers for all involved and their families.

To clarify, are you talking about a general procedure for obtaining a weapon, or are you saying the MP's had to go to the armory and sign out a weapon in order to respond to the shooter?

As I understand it, I will use my father inlaw as an example. He is retired army, if he goes aboard post, he must "check-in" his weapon as a chl holder to retrieve as he leaves ( he drops it off at my house usually)My understanding is that if a chl holder lives aboard post, he must go through the process as well. I used the word "seems" as I am not 100% sure! hoped someone could clarify. So I am talking about the soldier policy for concealed weapons. As I assumed, that has been a headline in the news today.

Once again a gun free zone and the shooter turns gun on himself when challenged by armed authority.

Ok, I thought they weren't even allowed as a CHL to bring a weapon on base. When I was in the military at a temporary duty post and living on base, I had to check my guns in with the MP's at the gate....I don't mean a single handgun, but several rifles, shotguns, and handguns. It was pretty routine back then, and not that big of a deal. Then again, sentries, ridiculously, carried a .45 with an empty mag inserted, and so had to eject the empty, put in a loaded mag, and operate the slide --so some of this stupidity has been around for a long time. In college we had to check our personal arms into the armory but each of us had an M14 assigned to us and kept in a rifle rack in our rooms.

talltex wrote:I was at Ft Hood back in 68/69...still live an hour away. When I told my wife about the shooting last night, the first thing she said was" "You're kidding... they STILL don't allow the soldiers to carry a weapon on Post after the last time? That's just crazy...if even one soldier had been able to shoot back it might have stopped him immediately."

There are probably enough former and current military on this board to get an answer to my question.

How do they work it in other countries? Do those that are on duty and in uniform carry a side arm even when not in a war zone?

Do only those on watch or their version of MPs carry side arms?

Last question (been out 45 years). Is everyone in our military and the military of other countries under arms when in a war zone?

donkey wrote:

howdy wrote:Two different Generals are touting that 15 minutes was a "swift" reaction to the shooter. I guess if you say something enough times it becomes truth.

I'd like to know if that is 15 minutes response time is measuring how long it took officers to respond to the scene of the initial call or if that is how long it took officers to make contact with the shooter. It's one thing if it took 15 minutes to respond to the 911 call. It's completely different if it took 15 minutes to respond, locate the shooter (who was moving between buildings), and engage that individual.

15 minutes? Guess what the response time is at my house if an intruder comes in shooting. About 1.5 seconds based on my last time at the range with a timer. And that's with rounds on target. I allow myself to OC while at home.

Listened to one of my 2A heroes on KSEV radio today: John Lott of "More Guns, Less Crime" fame.

He made his standard point regarding so-called gun free zones being unarmed victim killing zones.

What I found most interesting is he was talking about his son who was on base about a couple of 5 minutes from the shooting. His son saw the victims running away.

John Lott observed that his son recently returned from deployment to Afghanistan where he was constantly armed on base, but cannot here in the US. His son also has a Texas CHL and yet was prevented from being able to defend himself or anyone else.

C-dub wrote:

donkey wrote:

howdy wrote:Two different Generals are touting that 15 minutes was a "swift" reaction to the shooter. I guess if you say something enough times it becomes truth.

I'd like to know if that is 15 minutes response time is measuring how long it took officers to respond to the scene of the initial call or if that is how long it took officers to make contact with the shooter. It's one thing if it took 15 minutes to respond to the 911 call. It's completely different if it took 15 minutes to respond, locate the shooter (who was moving between buildings), and engage that individual.

15 minutes? Guess what the response time is at my house if an intruder comes in shooting. About 1.5 seconds based on my last time at the range with a timer. And that's with rounds on target. I allow myself to OC while at home.

Congratulations. Unfortunately that's not an option on a military base. The discussion was on the MP/Police response time not on the merits of allowing individual soldiers to carry. 15 minutes to respond to an active shooter 911 call is ridiculous. 15 minutes to respond, locate and neutralize the shooter (who is moving between building) is pretty decent. I don't think anyone on this site would argue that Fort Hood is better off by prohibiting CHL holder from carrying, but that is the current reality. The sooner that people start realizing that a 15 minute response time may be the best case scenario the sooner we might see a change in attitudes regarding gun free zones.

VoiceofReason wrote:
There are probably enough former and current military on this board to get an answer to my question.

How do they work it in other countries? Do those that are on duty and in uniform carry a side arm even when not in a war zone?

Do only those on watch or their version of MPs carry side arms?

Last question (been out 45 years). Is everyone in our military and the military of other countries under arms when in a war zone?

The foreign militaries that I've encountered have only had armed MP/security personnel in garrison. Everyone else was unarmed. I've seen foreign military personnel walk around unarmed in Afghanistan. I've also seen foreign military personnel in Afghanistan walk around more heavily armed than me. If varies between country and branch of service. In the US military arming policies vary depending on the base. There are bases in the Middle East that are considered to be in a "combat zone" but where only on duty police/security forces are armed. On the other hand in places like Afghanistan almost every US service member was armed. Somehow I was trusted to carry a rifle, grenade launcher, and pistol with ammunition on base while overseas but the second I come home I get treated like a child. Unfortunately that makes perfect sense to military leadership.

Please understand I am speaking as an Air Force "retiree" (about 3 years ago) on this subject. At one point, I lived in base housing in California. I had my firearms registered with the base armory, and kept in my house. No one ever came to my house to check on them. (Those in the barracks were prohibited from having ANY weapons, including larger knives.) However, that was with Mr. Bush as President, and we moved off-base prior to the current POTUS. No one, other than security personnel/military police (and a very few other exceptions) are allowed to carry a firearm on base/post. From what I gather, that started a VERY long time ago via policy from each service branch, and was later codified by the DOD, first under President Nixon, updated under George HW Bush, and under Clinton, GW Bush and finally the current POTUS. I'm not sure what the exact proper solution may be, and I understand arguments both for and against, but one thing is for certain: the current policy does NOT work, and proves the adage of "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away", no matter how good the particular law enforcement agency might be. That is NOT a dig at law enforcement, it is a fact.

When I was stationed at Bragg, I had a couple of privately owned firearms, we had to check them with the company armorer. Check out for weekend shooting, weapons remaining off base until the armorer was back on duty or if you could get him to come in. Ours was pretty good since he lived in base housing, about off hours processing. Just had to treat him to beers or maybe a dinner every once in a while. I made sure we were best friends. This was circa 1980.

I still travel and stay at base lodging and shop the NEX at Carswell from time to time (BTW they have M-4s and ARs at reasonable prices, even during Obama's gun grab warning) and have come to realize there is no standard as the base CO has a lot of latitude in how weapons are handled.

For instance, Carswell has to be notified prior to arrival if your coming on base with a weapon for Space-A travel. It takes about 3 days to get all the paper work sorted. You report in to the visitor center, they call for an SP to meet you and escort you to PAX. They don't leave until the Terminal NCO takes possession of it. Even though the CNATRA Document governing Space-A says that all TSA regs will be followed, there is no ammo, boxed or otherwise allowed on board and the loadmaster of the AC can refuse to accept it, though they rarely do. If you buy a weapon at the NEX, SP's come and escort you off base.

In contrast, Andrews AFB in MARYLAND, when arriving will bring your luggage and firearm around to the front of PAX and once you pick it up, leave you to your own devices. Likewise, when you come into PAX to depart, declare it unloaded, hand it over and proceed with check in. Done and Done. Kinda ironic, huh?

NAS Pensacola has a sign out front that states if caught, your CCW will be confiscated and you will be fined $450. Expensive but not life ending.

NAS Key West has a sign up front, and they are very good about it, to notify and check your weapon with SPs. Pick up when you leave, etc. We took out one Sunday morning the last time we were there and returned early evening. We notified at the gate as we were supposed to and were told, "Consider security notified, do not carry on base but from your vehicle directly to your trailer and back."

So there is huge variance depending on the attitudes of the base CO.

Looks like the guy was just a hothead

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/07/[abbreviated profanity deleted] ... -confirms/

"Fort Hood shooter Ivan Lopez's rampage followed an argument over the denial of his request for leave and did not appear to be due to some ongoing mental problem, an Army official said Monday."

jmra wrote:Looks like the guy was just a hothead

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/07/[abbreviated profanity deleted] ... -confirms/

"Fort Hood shooter Ivan Lopez's rampage followed an argument over the denial of his request for leave and did not appear to be due to some ongoing mental problem, an Army official said Monday."

From what I hear, he was not just a hothead, he had some severe mental issues.