TexasCHLforum.com

puma guy wrote:Whether or not one decides to break the law is up to them I guess, but in the case of Federal facilities (not including courthouses) if it's not properly posted as required by law and someone is aware it's off limits they have no defense. Penalty "shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both." Where is the $50 fine cited?

Post Offices are not "federal facilities", they are a separate federally owned corporation. The $50 fine is in the Postal Regulations. I don't have the time to look up the cite right now, but that is where you'll find it.

jbarn wrote:

chasfm11 wrote:

jbarn wrote:

Jumping Frog wrote:Hey, even if the guess is wrong and some jackwagon decides it is postal property, it is a $50 fine.

I am not worried about a $50 fine.

How about the 30 days in jail?

A lot of things would have to go very wrong for me to get to that point. I'm coming up on license renewal and have been carrying daily since about 2 months after I got my plastic. I've pushed the "bulge" limits on shirts pretty far and have never heard a peep out of anyone. Most of the time, there isn't even the slightest bump. So:

1. I would have to do something stupid and let my shirt ride up to actually show something.
2. At that precise moment, the proper authority figure is going to have to be there and instantly decide to arrest me. The dry cleaning place is pretty small and I'm usually in and out in less than 2 minutes. I like it because there is hardly ever a line and I'm prepared with everything I need before I walk in the door, even if I'm going to do something like a certified letter.

Those are pretty long odds. I'll take 'em.

OK. So you intentionally break the law as long as it is not "too serious" in your mind, and your chances if getting caught are "pretty slim" in your mind. Gotcha.

I do not believe that I'm breaking the law or I wouldn't do it. Just because someone else has a different and tighter interpretation does not make them correct. There have been a number of people arrested for things that were not violations of the laws. Let's look the the video situations in MD as an example. People were arrested and later acquitted because they hadn't broken any laws but the police said that they had. I won't even start on the TSA situations.

I believe that the Federal government has a proliferation of "law enforcement". Many of them appear to be zealots. That leaves me vulnerable, not just at my local dry cleaners over carrying a firearm but at many other places and for many other things. I was simply saying that in the grander scheme of false arrests - and that's what I believe that it would be - I'm willing to take my chances on it. I also believe that it would be a false arrest if I were to be arrested under a non-compliant 30.06 sign. The Grapevine chief of police does not agree with my interpretation of that situation. I really don't see that and the dry cleaner/post office situation differently.

Jumping Frog wrote:

puma guy wrote:Whether or not one decides to break the law is up to them I guess, but in the case of Federal facilities (not including courthouses) if it's not properly posted as required by law and someone is aware it's off limits they have no defense. Penalty "shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both." Where is the $50 fine cited?

Post Offices are not "federal facilities", they are a separate federally owned corporation. The $50 fine is in the Postal Regulations. I don't have the time to look up the cite right now, but that is where you'll find it.

I don't believe the USPS can set punishment for criminal offenses, but IANAL. Please post a link.

The only thing I found cites Title 18, United States Code, Section 930
http://about.usps.com/posters/pos158/welcome.htm

39 CFR part 232-1

(l) Weapons and explosives. Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

Penalty…

(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to a fine as provided in 18 U.S.C. 3571 or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations or any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated.

The fine… (I thought I found at one point that the fine was $50, but can't find that now.)

(b) Fines for Individuals.— Except as provided in subsection (e) of this section, an individual who has been found guilty of an offense may be fined not more than the greatest of—
(1) the amount specified in the law setting forth the offense;
(2) the applicable amount under subsection (d) of this section;
(3) for a felony, not more than $250,000;
(4) for a misdemeanor resulting in death, not more than $250,000;
(5) for a Class A misdemeanor that does not result in death, not more than $100,000;
(6) for a Class B or C misdemeanor that does not result in death, not more than $5,000; or
(7) for an infraction, not more than $5,000.

Another quote for 39 cfr 232-1 quoted it this way…

(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and
regulations in this section while on property under the charge and
control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or
imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in
these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other
Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations
applicable to any area in which the property is situated.

jbarn wrote:

Jumping Frog wrote:

jbarn wrote:

Jumping Frog wrote:Hey, even if the guess is wrong and some jackwagon decides it is postal property, it is a $50 fine.

I am not worried about a $50 fine.

How about the 30 days in jail?

I don't believe they would ever put me in jail for 30 days for something with a 50 fine. Lifetime clean record, isn't going to happen.

This is the feds.

Just tell them you and Holder are tight and you should be fine.

Anygunanywhere

39 CFR 232.1
(l) Weapons and explosives. Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

Notwithstanding Title 18, United States Code, Section 930 as I understand the language.
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

The sign posted at my post office cites both. Federal facilities is defined as anywhere federal employees carry out their official duties.
I'll leave anyone to make their own interpretation. I'll leave mine in the truck when I enter a US Post Office.

puma guy wrote:39 CFR 232.1
(l) Weapons and explosives. Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

Notwithstanding Title 18, United States Code, Section 930 as I understand the language.
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

The sign posted at my post office cites both. Federal facilities is defined as anywhere federal employees carry out their official duties.
I'll leave anyone to make their own interpretation. I'll leave mine in the truck when I enter a US Post Office.

On a bricks and mortar building clearly says post office, there is no difference in our approach. But I deliberately do not go to places like that. In the case of a "real" post office, I either don't park in their lot or I don't have my gun in my vehicle. But in the past 3 years, I'll bet I've only made that visit 3 times.