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Lots of good cops out there, but there are some bad ones as well. Unfortunately this guy picked the short straw and got shot. I often take out my wallet, take out my credit card and lay the wallet on the console when filling with gas. However, since I am armed I would have raised my hands, told the officer I was legally armed and let him take it from there. This guy was surprised and just did what he was told to do and ended up drawing a short straw. I hope he gets paid and the cop gets more than probation.

I hope it doesn't appear I am cop bashing. I am not. I believe the overwhelming majority of cops are good people who want to do the right thing. This guy may be one as well. Even so, I think he made a poor call. Unfortunately it happens and there are consequences to actions.

gljjt wrote:

C-dub wrote:I think that is enough for me and for the police to shoot. Bobcat, at what point would you wait to shoot? Would wait until fired upon first? What if it was a gun?

But it wasn't. And if you had shot in those circumstances you would also be going to trial.

There are dozens of cases where the police and citizen were found to be justified in shooting an unarmed person because they perceived a threat and they thought that person had a weapon and was about to employ that weapon.

This particular case is odd because the officer seemed on edge right from the start and for no good reason and is the one who escalated this incident. Someone said that they could understand the first shot, but it was the follow up shots that presented a real problem when it was obvious the man, not only didn't have a weapon, but might have had his hands up.

We need to distinguish between someone making a deliberate conscious decision to shoot - inappropriately - and being so jumpy he shoots (inappropriately) when the other guy moves fast.

C-dub I owe you an answer. I would probably have made the exact mistake the policeman did. Even knowing from the title of the video that the driver was unarmed, I was so surprised by his movements that I "saw" a weapon in his hand instead of his license of whatever it really was. I would have done the same thing the cop did if I had been that close - but I hope I would not have been that close, gun drawn, when the driver made his move.

There are a couple of things about the video that need explaining. One is why the policeman had his pistol drawn and pointed so early in the interaction. Another is why he crossed the field of view of the dashcam to shoot the driver, apparently trying to shoot away from the direction of the truck. Was there a person in the truck that the cop thought was a hostage or someone who was abducted? Had there been a police bulletin on the radio to look out for a pickup and driver matching the description of the driver he shot?

Since I got my CHL in 1996 my main fear has been that I would fail to recognize an emerging threat - in other words, that I'd get shot down standing there thinking, "This can't really be happening! I should draw and fire - but it is too late!"

The other side of the coin is the possibility of drawing/shooting inappropriately, out of startlement or fear, in a situation that did not call for such use of force, such as this video.

I think I personally am more prone to waiting too long, maybe taking the first bullet before realizing "this is is!" - but in this case of the video, well...

When a cop gives a command, he needs to expect the person to respond and follow that command. Shooting someone that is complying, whether he realizes it or not, is a problem. If a cop doesn't want someone to move or do something, telling them to get their ID is not the right command.

You can see it on the show cops at times. The cop will yell STOP, put you hands up, turn around, get on the ground and put your hands behind your head all within a few seconds without giving the suspect time to respond to the first command much less the conflicting commands.

I bet he was moving to get the back of the truck between him and the guy he was shooting. Moving to cover while shooting. I also suspect he was trying to get a less dangerous backstop than what he had when the door and windows of the store were in line behind his target.

Lot's of things going on real quick and it's hard to make 100% correct decisions but this deal is just bad. I think bad cops and cops that make bad decisions like this should be punished both criminally and through their agency of employment. Sounds like this case is being handled properly.

I also understand their may be more to the story. My opinions are based on what I saw in the video and read in limited articles I've read.

Seems if there is video, the reaction is different. Whether it is a football player or a police officer.

I pretty much am going to give the LEO the benefit of the doubt- except in this case. Watching this video has me thinking that perhaps the Ferguson, Missouri case was also a bad shoot. The value of video.

Pulling a gun because someone wasn't wearing a seat belt?

I hope there's more to the story.

bayouhazard wrote:Pulling a gun because someone wasn't wearing a seat belt?

I hope there's more to the story.

That is my question also.

gljjt wrote:This guy may be one as well. Even so, I think he made a poor call.

One could say Jim Jones was a nice guy who just happened to make a poor call with the Fla-Vor-Aid.

How bad does someone have to screw up before it negates whatever else they've done?

Frankly, I don't care if he was Mother Teresa's personal attendant and bodyguard; when he shot an innocent man over such a tenuous perception of a threat, he left the realm of even possibly being a good cop.

KD5NRH wrote:

gljjt wrote:This guy may be one as well. Even so, I think he made a poor call.

One could say Jim Jones was a nice guy who just happened to make a poor call with the Fla-Vor-Aid.

How bad does someone have to screw up before it negates whatever else they've done?

Frankly, I don't care if he was Mother Teresa's personal attendant and bodyguard; when he shot an innocent man over such a tenuous perception of a threat, he left the realm of even possibly being a good cop.

If you read the entirety of my posts, you would see I agree. You took my statement out of context and misinterpreted it.

He's been fired and charged with felony assault. If they didn't feel he was totally out of line, then they would have just suspended him pending investigation.

Yikes. He certainly moved quickly when asked for an ID.. Obviously that caused an already concerned (gun drawn) officer to make a judgement call that was incorrect. The bad judgement doesn't stop there, you probably shouldn't shoot suspects that have their hands up.

If that's a good officer, I feel bad that he made such a mistake.

Law enforcement scares me to death these days. Literally shaking. That will make zero sense to those who think that only criminals have to be afraid of the police. The nervousness causes suspicion, which doesn't help.

My solution to this situation is simple. If I'm asked for my DL, I say "my DL is in my back pocket, may I reach for it?"
For every command, I speak it back and indicate how I'm going to do it and do it slowly.
50/50 on LEOs appreciating this and LEOs demanding to search by car due to the "probable cause" provided by my acting nervous.
I do much better if I know there is a camera recording.. I relax quite a bit.

gljjt wrote: You can't shoot someone acting normally because they might have a gun.

As for there being "more to the story", it's possible, but sure doesn't seem likely. The officer states that he stopped him for a seatbelt violation and the man says he just took it off because he was pulling up to the pumps. There doesn't appear to be any reason for the officer to have been feeling so threatened before the victim had even been asked for his ID. In regards to the possible 20 year sentence, the only reason it might not be appropriate is because he didn't actually kill him....but it was not for lack of trying...that was his intention...he wasn't missing him on purpose.

BobCat wrote:C-dub I owe you an answer. I would probably have made the exact mistake the policeman did. Even knowing from the title of the video that the driver was unarmed, I was so surprised by his movements that I "saw" a weapon in his hand instead of his license of whatever it really was. I would have done the same thing the cop did if I had been that close - but I hope I would not have been that close, gun drawn, when the driver made his move.

And so would I under the same circumstances, except that I doubt I would have already had my gun out like this officer did, which, hopefully, would have prevented from making the same mistake. This guy was way too jumpy already.