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ELB wrote:Good example of where having training, skills, and maybe a tool or two to peel someone off of you would be handy.

True, he was outweighed by about 50%. I saw two guys involved, really...
It probably didn't help that he was young... My guess is a lot of stereotyping went into that decision.

What a moron. That would appear to me to deserve a fully justified lethal response.

Makes me kind of glad that I carry that Ka-Bar TDI. I can only imagine what my response would be to being grabbed from behind and tossed to the ground.

rbwhatever1 wrote:What a moron. That would appear to me to deserve a fully justified lethal response.

Personally, I'm not one to shoot someone over a mistake like that, especially inside a retail store. Instead, I'd be happy to extract anything in his bank account via the legal system. Better long term lesson and outcome on both sides.

You're kinda darned if you do or darned if you don't.... Do nothing and you're wrong. Do something and get it wrong and you're wrong.
Notice that one other person, perhaps two other people got involved. That guy though he had a bad guy, he just got it wrong.... He's the active citizen that a lot of you guys want - he just happened to get it wrong...

cb1000rider wrote:

rbwhatever1 wrote:What a moron. That would appear to me to deserve a fully justified lethal response.

Personally, I'm not one to shoot someone over a mistake like that, especially inside a retail store. Instead, I'd be happy to extract anything in his bank account via the legal system. Better long term lesson and outcome on both sides.

You're kinda darned if you do or darned if you don't.... Do nothing and you're wrong. Do something and get it wrong and you're wrong.
Notice that one other person, perhaps two other people got involved. That guy though he had a bad guy, he just got it wrong.... He's the active citizen that a lot of you guys want - he just happened to get it wrong...

It's easy to say that you wouldn't shoot over this "mistake" but I bet that when you're being jumped from behind it doesn't seem much like a mistake.

He'd have been the active citizen that we all kind of hope for had he just followed the guy around and decided he was not doing anything wrong. He didn't just "get it wrong" and he didn't just make a mistake. He saw something he felt was wrong, followed the guy into the store without alerting any authorities and then he assaulted the man in the store. The criminal is lucky that this didn't turn into a shootout in a public place because of his stupid decisions.

You can be active without trying to feed an ego.

Except, of course, the tackler didn't actually have any information, did not observe any illegal or threatening act, that indicated he should have thought he had a bad guy and just happened to get it wrong; he certainly had not reason to grab somebody and throw him on the ground, and he had plenty of time to call the police or store security if he thought something was up. He's not the active citizen that a lot of us guys want, he's a knucklehead. However, the guy with the gun and the permit certainly had good information that he was under attack, and had ample justification to defend himself.

I don't disagree with what you said, other than we don't know what he observed. We could depend on the media to provide all the facts, but we know how that goes. Yes, he should have called police. Yes, he should have done just about anything other than tackle. If I was guessing, he was looking at someone that was suspicious - the tacklee probably doesn't fit the demographics of your average CHL holder. We don't actually know what all he observed - we just know that he acted before calling police and that he was wrong via retrospective.

I agree the tackler is a knucklehead, I just think this is the other extreme of a passive society. And I do point out that other people rushed in not to protect the tacklee, but to help restrain him... Maybe everyone in Walmart is an idiot - or they thought that it was a different situation than it actually was.

To me, justification for using deadly force and making the choice to use it are two different things. I will never shoot someone for jumping on me from behind, at least not until I'm less physically capable - there are just too many circumstances where that isn't a bad guy intent on killing me. Jumping on me with a pipe or bat, it'd be different. And you'd be right to point that I might be wrong and it costs me - I can live with that. That decision becomes even more solid when you consider that you're in the middle of a confrontation in a relatively crowded situation. If I missed, I'd feel at fault... I like to think I'd consider the backdrop. I'm not saying it's the right decision for everyone.

Seemed like four people ended up getting involved. All seemed very willing to restrain the one man. That is except for the one shopper who just wheeled their cart by as it was all going along.

Crazy.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/story/2789 ... nse-holder" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well was some one racist?

Apparently our would be hero, did not know that bad guys

do not use holsters.

I hope Al Sharpton and Jessy jump all over this and encourage other African Americans to get their CHL's.

I'll probably not hear about it, as truly empowering African Americans is not what they are really about.

Let's hope this guy gets the book thrown at him and he sees the inside of a prison for a while.

Lots of "What ifs" Like what if the CHL holder legitimately thought he was being attacked and drew and fired?

Personally, I think ALL of the people involved in disarming him should be in jail right now.

So AndyC, does that mean he had been subject to something under the Baker Act prior to this incident, or does it mean that this incident is now going to get him an examination under the Baker Act? (I'm thinking the latter, but wouldn't surprise me if it turns out he has a history).

jimlongley wrote:Lots of "What ifs" Like what if the CHL holder legitimately thought he was being attacked and drew and fired?

Personally, I think ALL of the people involved in disarming him should be in jail right now.

I'll often walk with my weak side hand in my pocket, holding my knife. If I was being tackled like that, it is just as likely as I'd have stabbed whoever was tackling me. An up close and personal ambush, I can deploy my knife quicker than my gun.

philip964 wrote:Seemed like four people ended up getting involved. All seemed very willing to restrain the one man. That is except for the one shopper who just wheeled their cart by as it was all going along.

Crazy.

Sorry. I really needed to get a new coffee maker...

Only takes a second to have your throat cut or a knife stuck in your ribs. This one turned out with no life lost and we can all sit back and quarterback what we would have done because we can all see the outcome. I might agree with the do nothing response in another era. Today not so much. Anyone attacking me will receive the maximum response I'm able to give because I don't know how its going to end. I'm hopeful that my natural desire to exist is greater than the attackers desire to attack. If the victim here was stabbed in the ribs and died we would all be questioning his situational awareness and wondering why he didn't defend himself.

Most of us Texans on this forum have made the decision to not be victimized and have taken measures to defend ourselves, our families and our communities against violent humans. Some folks may be okay with being a victim sometimes if it all turns out okay. I don't think I could leave my existence in the hands of another human and hope it ends well. I've seen evil humans and it almost never ends well. The mindset that all humans are like us will get one killed. Their not. Evil humans exist.

Someone has a tag line here to carry 24/7 or guess right. I don't believe a "defend yourself instantly or guess right" line would work very well for me so I'll respond instantly to all violent attacks.

Here's an evil human caught yesterday:

http://www.fox4news.com/story/27900621/ ... ype=mobile" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;