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Posted: **Fri May 15, 2015 10:01 pm**

I can do either 5/23 or 5/30. Have a prior commitment to spend time with my bride tomorrow.

Posted: **Fri May 15, 2015 10:24 pm**

Love to do this but prefer a weekday. Weekends are crazy this time of year

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2015 3:26 am**

I don't know how to skeet shoot a shotgun. I mean, how much do you lead in front of the clay? If you don't mind teaching a novice, I'll tag along. Thanks.

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2015 6:14 am**

drjoker wrote:I don't know how to skeet shoot a shotgun. I mean, how much do you lead in front of the clay? If you don't mind teaching a novice, I'll tag along. Thanks.

As much as it takes.

Seriously, wingshooting (which is what all clay sports simulate) is instinctive shooting. How much lead depends on the distance, speed, & angle of the bird. Starting out, we can give you suggestions on how much to lead, but you really have to figure out what works for you.

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2015 6:40 am**

drjoker wrote:I don't know how to skeet shoot a shotgun. I mean, how much do you lead in front of the clay? If you don't mind teaching a novice, I'll tag along. Thanks.

The nice thing about skeet is that they always fly in the same direction and same speed, unlike real birds. The only weird thing clays do is jump up or down due to whatever wind hits them.

The leads are pretty well known for each station, so it's just a matter of remembering each one and proper technique when moving the shotgun. For the two stations on each side the leads are from almost nothing to about a foot. As you get closer to the center or middle stations the leads move out to about three feet. Whether your aim is above or below the clay depends on what its trajectory will be at the point of impact. Since it is not a laser beam, your aim will almost always be above or below the clay itself. Simple, right?

You'd think so, but I keep missing some that seem really easy and just boggle my mind. C'mon out and have some fun.

For everyone's information, Elm Fork's restrictions on shotguns for trap or skeet shooting is that the barrel must be at least 21" long.

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2015 7:34 am**

drjoker wrote:I don't know how to skeet shoot a shotgun. I mean, how much do you lead in front of the clay? If you don't mind teaching a novice, I'll tag along. Thanks.

You're welcome to come. My first time for one of these gatherings, organized by AndyC at Alpine Shooting Range, was my first ever Skeet experience AND my first ever real shotgunning experience, since all previous experience consisted of shooting a friend's 12 gauge pump into a berm exactly once back in the 1980s. I had an absolute ball.

As C-dub said above, Elm Fork does not allow the use of "tactical" style shotguns on their Skeet range unless the barrel equals or exceeds 21". So if you shotgun is a typical 18" room-broom, it is a no-go. Let me know, and I can bring along my old O/U for you to borrow.

I have not yet shot a sporting clays course, and have only shot traps once. But I find skeet very entertaining. It's kind of like golf with shotguns. As far as how much lead is required, AndyC is the expert, and I'm not that good at it (practice makes perfect, and I don't do it often enough), so he could better instruct you on it, but you'll start to get it down fairly quickly.

Here is an overhead diagram of a Skeet course:

And here is what it looks like to the shooters:

And another view:

The rules of the game are fairly simple, and all of the normal gun-safety rules apply. You never have more than 2 rounds loaded in the gun, no matter the gun's capacity. Over and Under, and Side by Side shotguns make that easy. If you're shooting a pump or semiauto, you'll begin each stage with one round chambered and one in the magazine. For experienced shooters, the stage is begun with the gun unmounted at the "low ready", and the shooter doesn't mount the gun until he calls "PULL!". As a concession to beginners, they are usually allowed to begin the stage with the gun mounted until they get used to how the game goes. As you can see from the 2nd and 3rd images, facing outward, the clay launchers are in a high house on the left, and a low house on the right. They launch their birds on different trajectories in terms of elevation, and "away" at an acute angle from the direct line drawn between the two houses, but their trajectories intersect at the center point relative to the arc of the shooting stations.

So as you can see, for the shooter, each station presents a different set of angles and leads. Factor in wind and other weather data, and it gets more interesting. Most people (but not all) find stations 1 & 7 to be the easiest because the bird will have the appearance of either coming almost directly toward you or away from you, and the required lead is less. The rules call for each shooter to shoot at a station before the group moves to the next station. So all shooters will take a turn at station 1, then the group will take turns at station 2, etc., etc.

A single point is awarded for each clay bird you hit. The hit doesn't have to be perfect, but it does need to break up the bird. At stations 1, 2, 6, & 7, the shooter will shoot in this order: 1 from the high house, 1 from the low house, and then a single pair launched simultaneously from both houses. So, stations 1, 2, 6, & 7 each award you up to 4 points. Again, as a concession to beginners, the beginner may be allowed to shoot the double "on report". That means that instead of being simultaneously launched, the 2nd clay of the double will be launched only upon the sound of the first shot in the double being fired. That gives the beginner a smidgeon more time to make the pair. A miss is a miss, and no point is awarded. When the shooters shoot from stations 3, 4, & 5, there is no set of doubles fired, so maximum possible points from those stations is 2.

When the shooter moves to station 8, there will be a stake in the ground marking the center point between stations 1 & 7, and there is a "shooter's box" on the ground on either side of that stake. The clay will appear to go almost directly overhead, and it will be moving very fast. Most shooters will find station 8 to be the most difficult to shoot. The shooter first stands in the box to the right of the stake, facing the high house on the left of the arc. He must hit the clay before it breaks the plane of the center point. Shooter then moves to the left box and faces the low house on the right of the arc, and he must hit that clay before it breaks the plane of the centerpoint. Again, the clay will be moving fast and it will be a difficult shot.

One "round" of Skeet consists of completing all 8 stations. Maximum number of points you can get up to this point is 24:

4 points - station 1
4 points - station 2
2 points - station 3
2 points - station 4
2 points - station 5
4 points - station 6
4 points - station 7
2 points - station 8
24 points all stations

Now, there are 25 shotshells in a box, which means that you have an unused one if you complete the course. At any time during your round, you may tell the "caddy" that you would like to take your bonus shot, using that last shotshell. Most shooters will choose to do that at station 7 because it is far easier to earn a point there, than to try and do it at station 8, but to the best of my recollection, you can take that bonus shot at any position you like. So if you take your bonus shot and get a hit, you'll have a "perfect" score of 25.

If you shoot a score of 8 or 10 out of the 25 possible as a beginner, you've done fairly well. After a couple of rounds, you should be well into the teens. The better shooters in our group run in the 20s pretty consistently. I can't recall a perfect 25, but that's not to say that someone hasn't done it. I think my very best round ever was an 18 or 19, but I don't get out often enough to maintain or improve on that kind of performance, so my own scoring is all over the map, and it's almost a "start over" every time for me. Like any shooter, I'd like to do better, but I get most of my enjoyment from Skeet just from being out with a bunch of friends at a range, and the hearty good fellowship that comes with that. C-dub's daughter is more or less our official scorer and mascot, and she has as much fun being part of it as any of us do. She's a great kid. (And C-dub, I don't remember if I told you this or not, but my wife really liked her too, and though she was quite the young lady.)

Total time elapsed per round depends on how many shooters there are, how windy and cold it is, how much harassing of the shooter is going on, and in this case, how much trouble TAM has adapting to a brand new gun, etc., etc. We usually shoot 3-4 rounds and then go have lunch together at a nearby mexican restaurant.

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2015 7:48 am**

OK, I've edited the poll to allow you to pick up to 3 dates. I should have done that at the outset.

Anyway, I note that today, it isn't supposed to start raining until 5 pm. Yesterday turned into a nice day and we could have done it then easily.

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2015 7:49 am**

I haven't shot a perfect 25 yet, but many of my friends at my gun club have. Several have even shot a perfect 100 in four rounds straight. One, recently, is a 14y old girl. We have quite a few teens in our club that compete all over the place in shotgun and another group that go to Camp Perry and other places for rifle competitions. My best so far is 22, I think.

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2015 8:22 am**

The Annoyed Man wrote:OK, I've edited the poll to allow you to pick up to 3 dates. I should have done that at the outset.

Anyway, I note that today, it isn't supposed to start raining until 5 pm. Yesterday turned into a nice day and we could have done it then easily.

Since nothing was nailed down here, I've committed to going to Garland this morning.

BTW, I can't change the vote I did yesterday.

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2015 11:41 am**

Gentlemen, I propose the 23rd then, a week from today. Sorry I balled up the poll setup, but now I know.....

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2015 11:47 am**

Yeah, I already read that after googling it. Ok. My bad, should've been more specific. How many inches is the clay disc in length so when a book or we page states lead by x ft, I'll know how much to lead in feint of the clay. Specially, he diameter of the clay discs they use at elm fork. Thanks.

Hmmm, maybe I'll just call them?

The Annoyed Man wrote:
drjoker wrote:I don't know how to skeet shoot a shotgun. I mean, how much do you lead in front of the clay? If you don't mind teaching a novice, I'll tag along. Thanks.
You're welcome to come. My first time for one of these gatherings, organized by AndyC at Alpine Shooting Range, was my first ever Skeet experience AND my first ever real shotgunning experience, since all previous experience consisted of shooting a friend's 12 gauge pump into a berm exactly once back in the 1980s. I had an absolute ball.

As C-dub said above, Elm Fork does not allow the use of "tactical" style shotguns on their Skeet range unless the barrel equals or exceeds 21". So if you shotgun is a typical 18" room-broom, it is a no-go. Let me know, and I can bring along my old O/U for you to borrow.

I have not yet shot a sporting clays course, and have only shot traps once. But I find skeet very entertaining. It's kind of like golf with shotguns. As far as how much lead is required, AndyC is the expert, and I'm not that good at it (practice makes perfect, and I don't do it often enough), so he could better instruct you on it, but you'll start to get it down fairly quickly.

Here is an overhead diagram of a Skeet course:
[ Image ]

And here is what it looks like to the shooters:
[ Image ]

And another view:
[ Image ]

The rules of the game are fairly simple, and all of the normal gun-safety rules apply. You never have more than 2 rounds loaded in the gun, no matter the gun's capacity. Over and Under, and Side by Side shotguns make that easy. If you're shooting a pump or semiauto, you'll begin each stage with one round chambered and one in the magazine. For experienced shooters, the stage is begun with the gun unmounted at the "low ready", and the shooter doesn't mount the gun until he calls "PULL!". As a concession to beginners, they are usually allowed to begin the stage with the gun mounted until they get used to how the game goes. As you can see from the 2nd and 3rd images, facing outward, the clay launchers are in a high house on the left, and a low house on the right. They launch their birds on different trajectories in terms of elevation, and "away" at an acute angle from the direct line drawn between the two houses, but their trajectories intersect at the center point relative to the arc of the shooting stations.

So as you can see, for the shooter, each station presents a different set of angles and leads. Factor in wind and other weather data, and it gets more interesting. Most people (but not all) find stations 1 & 7 to be the easiest because the bird will have the appearance of either coming almost directly toward you or away from you, and the required lead is less. The rules call for each shooter to shoot at a station before the group moves to the next station. So all shooters will take a turn at station 1, then the group will take turns at station 2, etc., etc.

A single point is awarded for each clay bird you hit. The hit doesn't have to be perfect, but it does need to break up the bird. At stations 1, 2, 6, & 7, the shooter will shoot in this order: 1 from the high house, 1 from the low house, and then a single pair launched simultaneously from both houses. So, stations 1, 2, 6, & 7 each award you up to 4 points. Again, as a concession to beginners, the beginner may be allowed to shoot the double "on report". That means that instead of being simultaneously launched, the 2nd clay of the double will be launched only upon the sound of the first shot in the double being fired. That gives the beginner a smidgeon more time to make the pair. A miss is a miss, and no point is awarded. When the shooters shoot from stations 3, 4, & 5, there is no set of doubles fired, so maximum possible points from those stations is 2.

When the shooter moves to station 8, there will be a stake in the ground marking the center point between stations 1 & 7, and there is a "shooter's box" on the ground on either side of that stake. The clay will appear to go almost directly overhead, and it will be moving very fast. Most shooters will find station 8 to be the most difficult to shoot. The shooter first stands in the box to the right of the stake, facing the high house on the left of the arc. He must hit the clay before it breaks the plane of the center point. Shooter then moves to the left box and faces the low house on the right of the arc, and he must hit that clay before it breaks the plane of the centerpoint. Again, the clay will be moving fast and it will be a difficult shot.

One "round" of Skeet consists of completing all 8 stations. Maximum number of points you can get up to this point is 24:

4 points - station 1
4 points - station 2
2 points - station 3
2 points - station 4
2 points - station 5
4 points - station 6
4 points - station 7
2 points - station 8
24 points all stations
Now, there are 25 shotshells in a box, which means that you have an unused one if you complete the course. At any time during your round, you may tell the "caddy" that you would like to take your bonus shot, using that last shotshell. Most shooters will choose to do that at station 7 because it is far easier to earn a point there, than to try and do it at station 8, but to the best of my recollection, you can take that bonus shot at any position you like. So if you take your bonus shot and get a hit, you'll have a "perfect" score of 25.

If you shoot a score of 8 or 10 out of the 25 possible as a beginner, you've done fairly well. After a couple of rounds, you should be well into the teens. The better shooters in our group run in the 20s pretty consistently. I can't recall a perfect 25, but that's not to say that someone hasn't done it. I think my very best round ever was an 18 or 19, but I don't get out often enough to maintain or improve on that kind of performance, so my own scoring is all over the map, and it's almost a "start over" every time for me. Like any shooter, I'd like to do better, but I get most of my enjoyment from Skeet just from being out with a bunch of friends at a range, and the hearty good fellowship that comes with that. C-dub's daughter is more or less our official scorer and mascot, and she has as much fun being part of it as any of us do. She's a great kid. (And C-dub, I don't remember if I told you this or not, but my wife really liked her too, and though she was quite the young lady.)

Total time elapsed per round depends on how many shooters there are, how windy and cold it is, how much harassing of the shooter is going on, and in this case, how much trouble TAM has adapting to a brand new gun, etc., etc. We usually shoot 3-4 rounds and then go have lunch together at a nearby mexican restaurant.

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2015 11:55 am**

drjoker wrote:Yeah, I already read that after googling it. Ok. My bad, should've been more specific. How many inches is the clay disc in length so when a book or we page states lead by x ft, I'll know how much to lead in feint of the clay. Specially, he diameter of the clay discs they use at elm fork. Thanks.

Hmmm, maybe I'll just call them?

As far as I know, they are a standard clay bird, nothing special about them. I'm guessing somewhere in the 4"-6" diameter range. Believe me.......these things are moving fast, like on the order of 40-50mph, and they look tiny. It won't much matter if you're supposed to lead by 2 ft or 2.25 ft at a given distance because your shot dispersal pattern will cover the deviation. Your leads are going to be approximations at best. And all it takes is one or two pellets to bust a clay. You'll be shooting (assuming 12 gauge) 350-400 number 7.5 or 8 pellets in the vicinity of 1,200 fps per single 2-3/4" shotshell. If just one or two of them connect solidly, bye-bye birdie. That means that you should probably think in round numbers of feet of lead, and not worry about fractions of feet.

Personally....... and this may be why I'm not very good at it..... I find it difficult to make the computations in feet in my head fast enough to consistently get the leads right, and I'm much more of an instinct shooter that way...... quite the opposite of when I am shooting a rifle.

And then there's the follow through technique. In Skeet, once you start swinging your barrel to track the bird, you don't want to stop swinging until after you've made the shot. But as someone who came to shotgun sports late in life who prefers using "ambush" lead in a rifle, I am always having to remind myself to keep the barrel moving. Probably half or more of my misses are due to my stopping the swing right at the moment of pulling the trigger. Unfortunately, the bird doesn't cooperate by hovering.........

Posted: **Sat May 16, 2015 2:36 pm**

AndyC wrote:
drjoker wrote:How many inches is the clay disc in length so when a book or we page states lead by x ft, I'll know how much to lead in feint of the clay. Specially, he diameter of the clay discs they use at elm fork. Thanks.
4 1/4" in diameter

Thanks Andy. I never bothered to measure or inquire.

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