TexasCHLforum.com

Good that no one was hurt...

I too notice all the threads about "what would you do?" "What ifs" etc etc...

The key is what you "shoudn't do" and the action taken by you and yer bud there is a prime example of restraint and professionalism, that kept it from going south in any event...

Sure, any one of us could jump up and think they are going to save the day, and be internet heroes for about 15 minutes...But knowing that at any time during that crisis, you very well could have ended it very decisively, if it had gone bad...

Anyone can pull a gun and shoot it...Keeping your head, and knowing when you can do it and win only comes with a lot of training, range time and talking shop with knowledgable folks like we have here in this forum...

NcongruNt wrote:I just had Waffle House for the first time while in Galveston, and the the biggest impression I have about the layout of the place is how cramped certain areas are...

That's probably why the robbers chose the place. There was no chance of a couple of armed people having cover.

- Jim

Paladin wrote:The walls in the Waffle House tend to be pretty thin, and I certainly wouldn't want to be in a gunfight with only a Kel-tec .380...

So I can see why he did what he did.

But I will say that he had plenty of legal justification to act, and I'm not sure I'd wait till they started shooting people or pointing a gun at me or my family to act.

Of course every situation is different, but everybody should be aware that there is a point where it becomes too late to act.

Suarez's experience with force-on-force suggests that sometime during the initial takeover is the best time to act. Before the BG's have control over the situation/people. If you're tied up on the floor in the back room, it's too late.

He would never allow himself to get tied up, or even placed on his knees with his back turned. Neither would I. But that is not what happened, and not what we are talking about, is it. And I think a guy who HAS had to use deadly force, trains consistently to do so, and often has to make shoot/no shoot decisions is a better training aid than a person who has read someones book or attended a few classes.

You have to remember too, my friend was confident in his abilities to put shots on targets, even moving ones, but bad guys can and do miss. Had he decided to engage, the safety of every single person in there was on his shoulders.

Good post. Good decision. Glad he and the diners are ok.

Any rounds fired by the BG during a gunfight would likely have hit someone else. Even if he had engaged them outside with the restaurant behind him.

Just about every AAR I read has the good guy talking about carrying a bigger pistol and more magazines. This echoes what Gabe Suarez says in his articles.

I suspect his regret at having a single mag .380 was not so much that his decision to act would be different, but that the subsequent chase would go better had he caught up with them outside the restaurant. As it was, he probably would have been relegated to keeping them in sight and getting a tag number.

txinvestigator wrote:Had he decided to engage, the safety of every single person in there was on his shoulders.

Actually it tends to be on the shoulders of the BGs that decided to rob the place and open fire. In places like Florida, if anyone dies during the robbery (like say one robber gets killed by a CHL), then the surviving BGs get charged with murder.

Paladin wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:Had he decided to engage, the safety of every single person in there was on his shoulders.

Actually it tends to be on the shoulders of the BGs that decided to rob the place and open fire. In places like Florida, if anyone dies during the robbery (like say one robber gets killed by a CHL), then the surviving BGs get charged with murder.

No actually Paladin, it would have rested squarely on HIS shoulders.

And your comment about Florida, while I don't know squat about Florida law, sounds wrong to me. Texas has a law called "causation", but would not apply to a CHLer defending himself against a bad guy, and the bad guys accomplice getting charged in the death of the first bad guy.

While I understand causation, I usually do a poor job of trying to explain it. Perhaps Charles could shed some light?

Couple of points I would like to make:

1. He made a good choice given the outcome BUT I don't think he could have known that the robbery wasn't going to turn violent. In the contrary, there was already a shot fired, AD or not. One would have a good reason to believe that it will turn violent on moment's notice with the perps starting shooting without warning. If you follow the news, there are plenty of cases when it did.

2. Getting caught in a robbery in a public place is my biggest fear ever since I came to United States years ago. That's why I would very rarely walk into a bank, stop'n'rob, etc. Now that I carry I am actually even more concerned, what if the robbers go for the wallets and/or start frisking people? Sometimes I carry a Rohrbaugh in my pocket and I don't think I am fast enough to draw and place the shots to save my skin (and not harm innocents in the cross fire) in such circumstances.

I am posting this not to second guess the action taken here but to generate discussion, I guess that's why it's called a Discussion Forum :)

--Sebis

sebis wrote:Couple of points I would like to make:

1. He made a good choice given the outcome BUT I don't think he could have known that the robbery wasn't going to turn violent. In the contrary, there was already a shot fired, AD or not. One would have a good reason to believe that it will turn violent on moment's notice with the perps starting shooting without warning. If you follow the news, there are plenty of cases when it did.

You can never "know" except for one thing....had he engaged them, it WOULD have turned violent. The robbers already had the upper hand, but they did not know there was a SWAT cop there. He was prepared for quick and lethal action.

Remember what he was armed with.

Having read all the posts in this thread I have my comment......

I believe your friend is a very well disciplined, competent officer. I also agree that he did the right thing based on the outcome.

That being said, no one can forsee what the outcome is going to be in a situation like this.

Therefore, I am sorry to say, that had I been in your friend's shoes, I would have engaged the moment the shot was fired.

Hopefully everyone would have already been down after that first shot. And since I carry a .45 and 2 spare mags, I would not have felt under gunned.

AEA wrote: Hopefully everyone would have already been down after that first shot.

My experience has been many non-professionals tend to freeze in place and look towards the disturbance instead of hitting the dirt or getting out of the way. It passes quickly, but not quickly enough…

I would not recommend assuming the non-combatants will immediately get out of the way or hit the dirt.

TXI:

Did your friend mention what the folks in the store did?

O6nop wrote:
Circumstances like these make me wonder - were there any CHL holders present? Aren't there ever any CHL holders in situations like this? are the percentages that low? Maybe I don't read enough news, but it's always off-duty cops.
Also, what would have happened if a CHL was there and acted before the cop did? Would they easily have recognized each other as 'good guys'? this has always been one of my worries and don't hear many people discuss it.

Good questions......
I actually believe that you will see more bad guys go down at the hands of CHL holders in Texas after Sep 1st of this year.

I believe that if a CHL holder was there and acted before the cop, that based on where he was shooting, the cop would have recognized him as being friendly.

TX Rancher wrote:

AEA wrote: Hopefully everyone would have already been down after that first shot.

My experience has been many non-professionals tend to freeze in place and look towards the disturbance instead of hitting the dirt or getting out of the way. It passes quickly, but not quickly enough…

I would not recommend assuming the non-combatants will immediately get out of the way or hit the dirt.

Exactly

TXI:

Did your friend mention what the folks in the store did?

Froze. Thats what I expect too.

AEA wrote:Having read all the posts in this thread I have my comment......

Therefore, I am sorry to say, that had I been in your friend's shoes, I would have engaged the moment the shot was fired.

Hopefully everyone would have already been down after that first shot. And since I carry a .45 and 2 spare mags, I would not have felt under gunned.

Unless you have training and experience under fire, I find that unlikely. That is not a criticism of you either. People tend to react with shock and need time to process what is happening and formulate a plan before responding, unless those brain pathways have already been established by training and experience.

3 tours in Vietnam and VERY Experienced.

That is why I said "I am sorry to say". It would have been done automatically without any other thought considered.

Nothing personal taken.