FastCarry wrote:Yes, it is OK. A question id like to ask, what made you think it wasn't okay? . . .
From what I have studied on my own (I could be wrong), the threat of force can be used to retrieve stolen property, but the threat of deadly force cannot initially be used to retrieve stole property.
Example, someone pickpockets my wallet. I can draw my pistol and display it to the pickpocketer without pointing it at him (threat of force) and scream at him to give me my wallet wallet, but I cannot point the pistol at him at this point (threat of deadly force). If the situation escalates further and the pickpocketer becomes a deadly threat, then I can point the pistol at him (threat of deadly force) and shoot him (use of deadly force).
Not a lawyer, but I thought the threat of deadly force was still FORCE not Deadly Force.
Seems to be stealing a gun (and not attempting to do harm with it) might be theft not robbery. Like picking your pocket or stealing a purse.
In my old job before I had to leave because of medical issues we were taught that if someone was trying to or did take you sidearm lethal force was authorized. We were told that the action of them traing your weapon was showing intent to commit murder. Why else would they try to take it? We were also trained that if we were OC'd or tased that lethal force was allowed since if we became incapacitated we would then be subject to the attacker's will.
Last edited by remington79 on Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
First off, if you are going to draw your gun, it better not be as a threat in any manner, you need to decide what situations you are going to pull and when to retreat. When you draw, it's game on (no, it's not a game).
Second, it's not just retrieving stolen property, or robbery anymore, he has a weapon. You are justified in using deadly force when a perp produces a weapon. If he has your gun, it's still a gun, and he has it and just committed robbery for it.
That being said, if it's of much concern, and feel it's probable enough to need to play the situation out, might consider CC for a while to see how OC goes. Shouldn't gamble on taking a ride or a life, for OC.
FastCarry wrote:. . . if you are going to draw your gun, it better not be as a threat in any manner . . .
I could be wrong, but I think I remember reading that it is legal to display your gun to a trespasser who is trespassing in broad daylight and order him to get off your property. I am pretty sure you cannot point the gun at the trespasser or shoot him, but you can let him know you have a gun and that you mean business.
O. Lee James, III Captain, US Army (Retired 2012), Honorable Order of St. Barbara
Safety Ministry Director, First Baptist Church Elgin
NRA, NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Instructor, Rangemaster Certified, GOA, TSRA, NAR L1
FastCarry wrote:. . . if you are going to draw your gun, it better not be as a threat in any manner . . .
I could be wrong, but I think I remember reading that it is legal to display your gun to a trespasser who is trespassing in broad daylight and order him to get off your property. I am pretty sure you cannot point the gun at the trespasser or shoot him, but you can let him know you have a gun and that you mean business.
To clarify, I mean mentally, dont pull your gun just as a measure of threat. Be prepared to use it. Pulling it JUST as a threat of force escalates a situation. If you pull, just know its going one of two very different ways once that bridge is crossed.
FastCarry wrote:. . . if you are going to draw your gun, it better not be as a threat in any manner . . .
I could be wrong, but I think I remember reading that it is legal to display your gun to a trespasser who is trespassing in broad daylight and order him to get off your property. I am pretty sure you cannot point the gun at the trespasser or shoot him, but you can let him know you have a gun and that you mean business.
To clarify, I mean mentally, dont pull your gun just as a measure of threat. Be prepared to use it. Pulling it JUST as a threat of force escalates a situation. If you pull, just know its going one of two very different ways once that bridge is crossed.
Completely agree. My CHL instructor 10 years ago left us with a saying... "if it's bad enough to pull the gun, it's bad enough to pull the trigger"..
That being said, just pulling your gun is FORCE until you shoot I believe.
o b juan wrote:Ranting to myself: Oh my God! Are some the CHLer instructors so none-proficient in teaching the basics of the justified use of force?
Beiruty,
Me to Beiruty
I am amazed at some of the questions CHL holders make after attending a class But even more amazed by some of the questions some Certified Tx Chl Instructors ask.
I have found that people dont listen
Tell me about it, I had to explain (i) on page 48 to an instructor that is a retired LEO when he first started teaching. He argued with me and I asked him where his law book was so I could show him, he said he didn't have one with him. ??????? Is it just me? I always have two or three in the truck just for these situations.
Carry safe and carry when and where you can. I'm just sayin'.
Technically, the crime committed was not robbery but theft from person. Robbery requires either an injury to the victim or a threat or placing the person in fear of an injury. This would be like a purse snatching where the thief grabbed the purse and ran. It is not covered by the defense mentioned for deadly force.
Tbryanh
I think you would be justified in this case because of the possible use of the firearm against you next. That is how police officers are trained, if someone grabs the gun they are trying to kill you. But I have to admit that you might have a problem if you reactions were slow enough that the thief was already running away by the time you turned around. But there is also a defense for deadly force if the thief is in possession of your property and you think deadly force is the only way to get it back. You need to very carefully read Chapter 9 of the Penal Code.
All,
I agree that a holster should have some retention devices but I want to caution everyone against relying too heavily on them. Since a holster must be designed for you to get the weapon out, it is almost always easy to get a pistol from a holster. When I went through the academy, we were allowed to choose our own holsters. I was the only one in the class who picked the SSIII, which was relatively new on the market at the time. This was one of the first holsters that was classified as a level three retention holster. One of the detectives, Ben Lively, was showing us how easy it is to grab a gun. As he went through the class, he could get everyone's pistol out of their retention holsters as quickly as they could. He had a little trouble with mine, but it came out too. This was done as one of the training classes on firearms retention and subduing a prisoner.
Ben was very practiced at this and had been doing it for every class for several years, but some of the hard core criminals also practice these types of grabs. I strongly recommend that everyone practice how to retain your weapon, especially if you are ever carrying openly. I don't think this is a very big threat, but it is a possible one to consider. BTW, I think the best retention method is to grab the butt of the pistol while it is still in the holster and just push it down as hard as you can. Use your other hand to get a BUG or a knife and fight with the grabber.
My vote is it would be robbery. Stealing someones gun places fear in them. Not the same as snatching a purse. A purse snatcher is gonna run. A gun snatcher is well, we don't know, but it would most likely be easier to steal a gun from a store or any empty house if all you want is to steal a gun. Taking it directly from a person to me, means they need that gun to do something bad at that moment. As to the whole "force" question, or being justified in pulling your gun to show force. I am not a lawyer, but I don't think they law covers this. As it reads to me, there is no pulling your gun out to intimidate, or show that you have a gun. If you are justified in pulling out your gun, you are justified in shooting someone. Same concept as a "warning shot" . I have served in the military and there is no warning shots. Your either justified or your not. Now if you are justified, and pull your gun and the perp runs off then that is ok, but I personally feel, if you think your life is in danger, or someone else's is, you have to be ready to pull the trigger. If that isn't the case, then your gun should stay in the holster.
srothstein wrote:Beiruty,
Technically, the crime committed was not robbery but theft from person. Robbery requires either an injury to the victim or a threat or placing the person in fear of an injury. This would be like a purse snatching where the thief grabbed the purse and ran. It is not covered by the defense mentioned for deadly force.
.......
Snatching a purse would not constitute a threat to one's life.
However, snatching a firearm would exactly be placing the person in fear of an injury or death.
Beiruty,
United we stand, dispersed we falter
2014: NRA Endowment lifetime member
srothstein wrote:Beiruty,
Technically, the crime committed was not robbery but theft from person. Robbery requires either an injury to the victim or a threat or placing the person in fear of an injury. This would be like a purse snatching where the thief grabbed the purse and ran. It is not covered by the defense mentioned for deadly force.
.......
Snatching a purse would not constitute a threat to one's life.
However, snatching a firearm would exactly be placing the person in fear of an injury or death.
I would be leary if a purse also because a lot of women purse carry, even without a license.
IF SOMEONE TRIES TO TAKE MY PISTOL AWAY FROM ME I WILL CONSIDER THAT A THREAT TO MY PERSON AND I WILL USE DEADLY FORCE TO PREVENT THAT PERSON FROM TAKING MY PISTOL AWAY FROM ME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
