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Re: Will You OC Using A Non-Retention Holster?
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:23 am
by The Annoyed Man
drjoker wrote:The Annoyed Man wrote:What is "retention"?
Your holster with a lever is a "retention" holster. Also, some holsters require you to tilt your gun forward before drawing it. That's also a "retention" holster. Or a holster that requires pushing a button such as Blackhawk Serpa. It's just fancy schmancy "marketing".
A thumb break or snap strap with a lanyard should be fine.
Yeah, I know. My question was rhetorical......my point being that a proper well-made holster is all the retention you need.
"Retention", like "safeties", occurs primarily in the brain. Just as your gun's best safety is between your ears, your holster's best retention is in your situational awareness. A well made holster will retain a pistol from falling out accidentally,
even if held upside down, because it FITS the gun PROPERLY. The two holsters I have with thumbsnaps are well made proper holsters, but neither provides any more retention than my custom-made holster from Eric Hopp which fits my gun perfectly. The holster with the lever (a Safariland Model 578 GLS™ Pro-Fit™) does not provide significantly more retention than either of those two thumbsnap holsters do. Why? Because [A] any idiot planning on trying to take the gun can SEE the lever and understand that it needs to be actuated in order to remove the gun; and
that idiot STILL has to penetrate my situational awareness to accomplish his goal.
At some point, retention devices begin to intrude on your own ability to draw your gun if you need to. All of this noise about retention holsters is just one reason why, as a general thing, concealed carry is superior to open carry. If you're that scared that someone can take your gun, maybe you should consider not letting him know you HAVE a gun.
My answer is: [A] you made the decision to carry a firearm worth from several hundred to several thousand dollars out in the open; therefore don't be a cheapskate on your holster choices; and [C] DON'T assume that spending money on gadgets will make up for your own personal shortcomings in paying attention to what is going on around you.
Buy a retention holster if you want, but understand that in the end, retention happens between your ears, not in your choice of gadgetry.
Re: Will You OC Using A Non-Retention Holster?
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:51 pm
by oljames3
The Annoyed Man wrote:...
At some point, retention devices begin to intrude on your own ability to draw your gun if you need to. All of this noise about retention holsters is just one reason why, as a general thing, concealed carry is superior to open carry. If you're that scared that someone can take your gun,
maybe you should consider
not letting him know you HAVE a gun.
My answer is: [A] you made the decision to carry a firearm worth from several hundred to several thousand dollars out in the open;
therefore don't be a cheapskate on your holster choices; and [C] DON'T assume that spending money on gadgets will make up for your own personal shortcomings in paying attention to what is going on around you.
Buy a retention holster if you want, but understand that in the end, retention happens between your ears, not in your choice of gadgetry.
I use a holster with a strap to help keep the pistol in its place while I am concentrating on something else.
TAM, there is another aspect to carrying which I have mentioned in several posts and which you seem to be overlooking. In a word; activity.
I'm still young and active enough to recover my own rockets. Sometimes they land as much as a mile from the launch site. I try to keep them closer. 
Recovery entails crossing rough terrain. I use a holster with a strap to help keep the pistol in its place. Any other benefit is gravy.
Your mileage will very.
Re: Will You OC Using A Non-Retention Holster?
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:01 pm
by The Annoyed Man
oljames3 wrote:I use a holster with a strap to help keep the pistol in its place while I am concentrating on something else.
TAM, there is another aspect to carrying which I have mentioned in several posts and which you seem to be overlooking. In a word; activity.
I'm still young and active enough to recover my own rockets. Sometimes they land as much as a mile from the launch site. I try to keep them closer.
Recovery entails crossing rough terrain. I use a holster with a strap to help keep the pistol in its place. Any other benefit is gravy.
Your mileage will very.
And that is a perfectly valid reason to have a retention holster. I'm not arguing that they are bad. I'm just saying that we shouldn't let them be a substitute for paying attention to what is going on around us...... or to what we're doing while wearing them. This is not because retention is bad, but because like with safety mechanisms, your ultimate "safety" to prevent having your gun taken away from you (or to losing it in the field) is located between the ears.
For instance, I have a couple examples of the leather Desantis Speed Scabbard (1 for my M&P45, and 1 for my wife's G19), and they accomplish retention by means of adjusting the holster's tension against the trigger guard. Here's a picture of it:
That screw next to where the underside of the trigger guard is located adjusts the force with which the holster clamps onto the trigger guard, and therefore the pistol; and retention is accomplished by how hard the pistol is clamped into the holster. It can be adjusted quite tightly.....to the point where it is very difficult to draw the gun from the holster. That might keep someone from stealing your gun, or keep the gun falling out when your chasing after lost rockets, but it can also be too tight to easily/effectively draw your holster in a time of need without a degree of difficulty. But at least with that holster, you can adjust it with a few turns with a screwdriver to fit your needs at the moment.
Retention has its place, but I don't think it is a universal panacea. I don't even think that it will keep someone from stealing your gun if they are determined to do so........UNLESS, you are going to wear some incredibly complicated holster that really locks the gun down - also making it hard for
you to draw. Since I have no plans to make OC my SOP, it isn't something that I feel the need to explore too deeply. As I wrote previously, my two retention holsters are a "sop" to retention for OC, so that in the rare event that I do OC, a casual observer/do-gooder will note the retention and leave me the heck alone.
Re: Will You OC Using A Non-Retention Holster?
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:10 pm
by hounddog
I'm not trying to throw a monkey wrench in the works, but someone should have mentioned reading the rules before engaging in this discussion. The way I'm reading HB 910 is you have to have a retention holster of some sort. About the 5th paragraph down in HB910 it mentions something about this subject. I'm not trying to be a know-it-all, just trying to learn all I can about this stuff. I don't think I'll be OCing, except at church, with a sport coat over it. But I think they're pretty serious about this business.
Re: Will You OC Using A Non-Retention Holster?
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:33 pm
by Skiprr
hounddog wrote:I'm not trying to throw a monkey wrench in the works, but someone should have mentioned reading the rules before engaging in this discussion. The way I'm reading HB 910 is you have to have a retention holster of some sort. About the 5th paragraph down in HB910 it mentions something about this subject. I'm not trying to be a know-it-all, just trying to learn all I can about this stuff. I don't think I'll be OCing, except at church, with a sport coat over it. But I think they're pretty serious about this business.
I believe you're looking at GC §411.188, which deals with requirements/expertise of LTC instructors. They must teach "...handgun use and safety, including use of restraint holsters and methods to ensure the secure carrying of openly carried handguns..."
But there is no requirement in the new legislation that an LTC holder must
use a restraint holster.
Re: Will You OC Using A Non-Retention Holster?
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:55 am
by amtank
What type of motors are Yall using?
Holster type for me is driven by gun size.
Re: Will You OC Using A Non-Retention Holster?
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:03 am
by Skiprr
amtank wrote:What type of motors are Yall using?
Holster type for me is driven by gun size.
I'm sorry.
What?
Re: Will You OC Using A Non-Retention Holster?
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:40 am
by WinoVeritas
Yes and no. Depends on dress, environment and activity. Have formed leather with & without thumb break for CC/OC, strap to restrain for field revolvers or pistols when in outback.
Re: Will You OC Using A Non-Retention Holster?
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:21 am
by BCGlocker
Abraham wrote:I wonder how many will do so, because it's cheaper to just use what you have?
What say you?
Thanks!
I am a bit puzzled by this question. Why would anyone with a CHL jeopardize doing something illegal that could cost you to loose your CHL? I won't open carry largely due to lost of tactical advantage, but if I do, I will make sure it will be 100% legal.
Re: Will You OC Using A Non-Retention Holster?
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:23 am
by anygunanywhere
BCGlocker wrote:Abraham wrote:I wonder how many will do so, because it's cheaper to just use what you have?
What say you?
Thanks!
I am a bit puzzled by this question. Why would anyone with a CHL jeopardize doing something illegal that could cost you to loose your CHL? I won't open carry largely due to lost of tactical advantage, but if I do, I will make sure it will be 100% legal.
Nothing in the law requires use of retention. How are you going to lose your CHL/LTC by using a non-retention holster?
Re: Will You OC Using A Non-Retention Holster?
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:44 am
by BCGlocker
Nothing in the law requires use of retention. How are you going to lose your CHL/LTC by using a non-retention holster?
Since I have absolutely no desire to OC, I admit I have not study this aspect of law at all. However, I was under the impression that in order to legally OC, one MUST have a CHL and a retention holster. Am I wrong on this?
Re: Will You OC Using A Non-Retention Holster?
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:48 am
by WinoVeritas
BCGlocker wrote:Nothing in the law requires use of retention. How are you going to lose your CHL/LTC by using a non-retention holster?
Since I have absolutely no desire to OC, I admit I have not study this aspect of law at all. However, I was under the impression that in order to legally OC, one MUST have a CHL and a retention holster. Am I wrong on this?
You're half right - you must have a CHL/LTC to legally carry CC or OC, but no law requires a retention type holster - just a holster - type not specified other than belt or shoulder.
Re: Will You OC Using A Non-Retention Holster?
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:52 am
by LikWid
Love my Fobus paddle holster for my PX4 storm. Has a screw to adjust retention. First holster I bought, and still using it.
Re: Will You OC Using A Non-Retention Holster?
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:53 am
by BCGlocker
You're half right - you must have a CHL/LTC to legally carry CC or OC, but no law requires a retention type holster - just a holster - type not specified other than belt or shoulder.
Thanks for the clarification. I wonder where I got this notion of retention holster requirement? It does seemed to be a good idea to have some sort retention device to protect one's pistol in the open.
Re: Will You OC Using A Non-Retention Holster?
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:58 am
by longhorn86
WinoVeritas wrote:BCGlocker wrote:Nothing in the law requires use of retention. How are you going to lose your CHL/LTC by using a non-retention holster?
Since I have absolutely no desire to OC, I admit I have not study this aspect of law at all. However, I was under the impression that in order to legally OC, one MUST have a CHL and a retention holster. Am I wrong on this?
You're half right - you must have a CHL/LTC to legally carry CC or OC, but no law requires a retention type holster - just a holster - type not specified other than belt or shoulder.
Here is the section of HB910 that applies to this, no mention of "retention"
SECTION 40. Section 30.05(f), Penal Code, is amended to
read as follows:
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or
in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was
forbidden; and
(2) the person was carrying:
(A) a license issued
under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a
handgun; and
(B) a handgun:
(i) in a concealed manner; or
(ii) in a shoulder or belt holster.