TexasCHLforum.com

casp625 wrote:

SewTexas wrote:

casp625 wrote:I'm seriously surprised the Bell County Justice Complex was ruled in violation. It's pretty much 90% courtrooms with a few administrative areas, such as the county clerks in varying areas. Unless someone is going into the bathroom, the clerk office or library, one will find themselves violating 46.03 in a heartbeat.

that's the thing though, if I'm going to the clerk and I don't have to go anywhere near a courtroom I shouldn't have to disarm.

If I am looking for court records, scheduling questions, etc., I contact the county clerk's office. While I can see how the district attorney's office is not essential to court operations, how is the clerk's office not essential? In other words, if all the county clerk offices decided to shutdown operations, would courts still be able to function properly? How would a court function properly if the only employees were the judge, bailiff, and court reporter?

But the same could be said about the electric company - turn off the power, and watch as the courtroom grinds to a halt. Or the police department - get rid of the police and there will be no more criminal trials. Or the hospitals - stop delivering babies and we won't have any defendants, plaintiffs, etc. (Yes, I know, reductio ad absurdum).

But the idea that I'm trying to present is that MANY things can be considered essential, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. That line has been drawn, and the area it encloses does not include a clerk's office where so many non-trial things take place. Marriage Licenses, Property Records, Birth Records, etc. ... none of these should require me to disarm just to file them.

The AG letter for Bell County, as well as City of Lake Dallas Municipal Complex, Glenn Heights City Hall, Kleberg County Courthouse and Woodway Police Department are now posted on the AG web site.

https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/30 ... ng-letters

Vol Texan wrote:

casp625 wrote:

SewTexas wrote:

casp625 wrote:I'm seriously surprised the Bell County Justice Complex was ruled in violation. It's pretty much 90% courtrooms with a few administrative areas, such as the county clerks in varying areas. Unless someone is going into the bathroom, the clerk office or library, one will find themselves violating 46.03 in a heartbeat.

that's the thing though, if I'm going to the clerk and I don't have to go anywhere near a courtroom I shouldn't have to disarm.

If I am looking for court records, scheduling questions, etc., I contact the county clerk's office. While I can see how the district attorney's office is not essential to court operations, how is the clerk's office not essential? In other words, if all the county clerk offices decided to shutdown operations, would courts still be able to function properly? How would a court function properly if the only employees were the judge, bailiff, and court reporter?

But the same could be said about the electric company - turn off the power, and watch as the courtroom grinds to a halt. Or the police department - get rid of the police and there will be no more criminal trials. Or the hospitals - stop delivering babies and we won't have any defendants, plaintiffs, etc. (Yes, I know, reductio ad absurdum).

But the idea that I'm trying to present is that MANY things can be considered essential, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. That line has been drawn, and the area it encloses does not include a clerk's office where so many non-trial things take place. Marriage Licenses, Property Records, Birth Records, etc. ... none of these should require me to disarm just to file them.

Exactly! I should not have to disarm just to file yet another DBA....I've got a couple.

Vol Texan wrote:

casp625 wrote:

SewTexas wrote:

casp625 wrote:I'm seriously surprised the Bell County Justice Complex was ruled in violation. It's pretty much 90% courtrooms with a few administrative areas, such as the county clerks in varying areas. Unless someone is going into the bathroom, the clerk office or library, one will find themselves violating 46.03 in a heartbeat.

that's the thing though, if I'm going to the clerk and I don't have to go anywhere near a courtroom I shouldn't have to disarm.

If I am looking for court records, scheduling questions, etc., I contact the county clerk's office. While I can see how the district attorney's office is not essential to court operations, how is the clerk's office not essential? In other words, if all the county clerk offices decided to shutdown operations, would courts still be able to function properly? How would a court function properly if the only employees were the judge, bailiff, and court reporter?

But the same could be said about the electric company - turn off the power, and watch as the courtroom grinds to a halt. Or the police department - get rid of the police and there will be no more criminal trials. Or the hospitals - stop delivering babies and we won't have any defendants, plaintiffs, etc. (Yes, I know, reductio ad absurdum).

But the idea that I'm trying to present is that MANY things can be considered essential, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. That line has been drawn, and the area it encloses does not include a clerk's office where so many non-trial things take place. Marriage Licenses, Property Records, Birth Records, etc. ... none of these should require me to disarm just to file them.

Not only that but what about every dwelling in the city? With no houses, people would surely suffer and die, so courts would have no employees, defendants, or plaintiffs, also every single restaurant and every roadway......

The question should be "where is it absolutely necessary to prohibit firearms that are carried by the most lawful of our citizens?" Those places should be VERY few and far between. And they should prohibit carry by on-duty LEO's as well. LTC holders are just as law abiding as that group.

The big Killeen PD hq also has signs in their doors. Now, there are two SEPARATE sections of this place: the hq and the jail. If I understand correctly, an LTC holder should be able to enter the unrestricted portion of the police station, so the signs on the hq are invalid. Right? How about the jail part, which is completely separate? The lobby to the jail is open to the general public, but, does it qualify as a "correctional facility" and therefor the entire premesis is off limits to LTC?

nimravus01 wrote:The big Killeen PD hq also has signs in their doors. Now, there are two SEPARATE sections of this place: the hq and the jail. If I understand correctly, an LTC holder should be able to enter the unrestricted portion of the police station, so the signs on the hq are invalid.

This is how I understand it. One of the AG's recent letters was to a police department that apparently shared a building with a court. They had previously "signed" the whole building, but after complaint and investigation, the signs came off the outer doors and were put on the court only.
https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/fi ... e_Dept.pdf

nimravus01 wrote:Right? How about the jail part, which is completely separate? The lobby to the jail is open to the general public, but, does it qualify as a "correctional facility" and therefor the entire premesis is off limits to LTC?

Dunno about the lobby to a separate jail facility. Strictly read, I don't think the lobby could be legally posted if it is not in fact within the secure portion.

nimravus01 wrote:The big Killeen PD hq also has signs in their doors. Now, there are two SEPARATE sections of this place: the hq and the jail. If I understand correctly, an LTC holder should be able to enter the unrestricted portion of the police station, so the signs on the hq are invalid. Right? How about the jail part, which is completely separate? The lobby to the jail is open to the general public, but, does it qualify as a "correctional facility" and therefor the entire premesis is off limits to LTC?

Is it a jail or do they simply have holding cells? Having holding cells doesn't mean the facility is a jail.

txyaloo wrote: Is it a jail or do they simply have holding cells? Having holding cells doesn't mean the facility is a jail.

Here's the layout for the Killeen PD headquarters: it's a rather large building. To the right is the entrance to the main lobby of the station. To the far left is the entrance to the lobby of the jail. The jail side is where you go to visit someone or to post bail. They only hold people at this jail for short periods of time until they are trasported to Bell County jail. The lobby to the jail is open to the public. Beyond the lobby are all secured doors. There is a thick safetyglass window where you speak to the jailers. If you are there to see a defendant, you go into one of the rooms to the left of the window where there is another thick safetyglass barrier and you speak through a phone. After bail is posted, the defendant is released out into the lobby.

Like I said before, both entrances are posted with 30.06 and 30.07 signs.

I'm fairly certain the main PD lobby should not be posted at all.

I'm less certain about the jail side. Should it be posted? Or, is it statutoraly off limits by falling under the "correctional facility" exception under 46.035?

Are there any other sections of the law that specifically states that police stations or municipal jails are off limits?

These questions also apply to the Bell County jail which is part of the Bell County Justice Complex mentioned in the OP.

This thread might be helpful.

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=13566

I'd file an complaint over the signage with the city and then AG over the signage. College Station PD had similar signage. They came down after note was sent to the city attorney several years ago pointing out how the signs were unenforceable.

Not surprisingly, Bell County plans to fight the AG.http://www.kxxv.com/story/31929038/bell ... arry-signs