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But, the statute says "property" not "premises," so if they post anywhere on the property, does that make the whole property off limits?TangoX-ray wrote:Parking lot isn't premises (building or portion of a building).
Possibly. But a reasonable person would have to know the property that is being referred to. In the case of a multi-building mall, this may not be as straightforward as it would be if the mall was all in one building. The fact that a piece of pavement is posted and not an actual building has further potential for confusion.SMRoot wrote:But, the statute says "property" not "premises," so if they post anywhere on the property, does that make the whole property off limits?TangoX-ray wrote:Parking lot isn't premises (building or portion of a building).
Agreed. Hence, my question. Much of this is a bit confusing to me. It would seem that someone could post on a building and that it would make carrying outside of a vehicle in the parking lot off limits as well since it is all party of the same property. As soon as you see it, you have trespassed and will be in violation until you get back to your car.Soccerdad1995 wrote:Possibly. But a reasonable person would have to know the property that is being referred to. In the case of a multi-building mall, this may not be as straightforward as it would be if the mall was all in one building. The fact that a piece of pavement is posted and not an actual building has further potential for confusion.SMRoot wrote:But, the statute says "property" not "premises," so if they post anywhere on the property, does that make the whole property off limits?TangoX-ray wrote:Parking lot isn't premises (building or portion of a building).
I've never really been clear on this, either. Say you have a big multi-store shopping area with a PetSmart, Best Buy, Office Depot, a couple of restaurants, etc. NONE of these have 06/07 signs on their doors, BUT they're posted at the entrances to the parking lots. The 30.06/07 language says "may not enter this property....."Soccerdad1995 wrote:Possibly. But a reasonable person would have to know the property that is being referred to. In the case of a multi-building mall, this may not be as straightforward as it would be if the mall was all in one building. The fact that a piece of pavement is posted and not an actual building has further potential for confusion.SMRoot wrote:But, the statute says "property" not "premises," so if they post anywhere on the property, does that make the whole property off limits?TangoX-ray wrote:Parking lot isn't premises (building or portion of a building).
Hence why the law/sign says property.TangoX-ray wrote:Parking lot isn't premises (building or portion of a building).
Correct, they partially they fixed this with 30.07 by requiring the sign to be at the entrance to property, but for whatever reason did not change 30.06.SMRoot wrote: Agreed. Hence, my question. Much of this is a bit confusing to me. It would seem that someone could post on a building and that it would make carrying outside of a vehicle in the parking lot off limits as well since it is all party of the same property. As soon as you see it, you have trespassed and will be in violation until you get back to your car.
They mean what they say. "may not enter this property.....". Is the PetSmart, Best Buy, Office Depot, a couple of restaurants, etc. on the property that is posted? There is your definitive answer.Ruark wrote:[
I've never really been clear on this, either. Say you have a big multi-store shopping area with a PetSmart, Best Buy, Office Depot, a couple of restaurants, etc. NONE of these have 06/07 signs on their doors, BUT they're posted at the entrances to the parking lots. The 30.06/07 language says "may not enter this property....."
I have a CHL/LTC. Do those signs prohibit me from legally carrying into those stores? I assume they prohibit carrying in the parking lots.....?
I don't think I've ever heard a definitive answer to this question.
"This property" means the parking lot...or does it mean the land that the parking parking lot is on and everything on it, including vehicles and aircraft? Or all the parts of the parking lot and buildings that are owned by person posting the sign?Solaris wrote:They mean what they say. "may not enter this property.....". Is the PetSmart, Best Buy, Office Depot, a couple of restaurants, etc. on the property that is posted? There is your definitive answer.Ruark wrote:[
I've never really been clear on this, either. Say you have a big multi-store shopping area with a PetSmart, Best Buy, Office Depot, a couple of restaurants, etc. NONE of these have 06/07 signs on their doors, BUT they're posted at the entrances to the parking lots. The 30.06/07 language says "may not enter this property....."
I have a CHL/LTC. Do those signs prohibit me from legally carrying into those stores? I assume they prohibit carrying in the parking lots.....?
I don't think I've ever heard a definitive answer to this question.
Common sense usage applies.ScottDLS wrote:[
"This property" means the parking lot...or does it mean the land that the parking parking lot is on and everything on it, including vehicles and aircraft? Or all the parts of the parking lot and buildings that are owned by person posting the sign?
I'm sorry if you find my questions odd. However, in the examples that you gave it is much more easily discernible where the boundaries of the property are. The White House is fenced, right? (I haven't actually been there) The property boundaries in a residential neighborhood are fairly easy to see (at least roughly) and more rural property will probably be fenced. If the property boundaries are not clearly marked with a fence or purple paint, and you say, "stay off of my property," I have no idea where - precisely - you have banned me from going. I have to know what property belongs to you and what belongs to your neighbors.Solaris wrote:Common sense usage applies.ScottDLS wrote:[
"This property" means the parking lot...or does it mean the land that the parking parking lot is on and everything on it, including vehicles and aircraft? Or all the parts of the parking lot and buildings that are owned by person posting the sign?
If you tell someone to stay off your property, do you mean do not come in the house but feel free to use the swimming pool and drive the vehicles?
Sign says "No guns on White House Property". OK to shoot skeet on the South Lawn?
eta
I find it odd we are discussing what a nearly 20 year old law with commonly used phrases means.
YMMV. I have never really had a problem knowing what property a sign applied to. Are there exceptions, sure but 99.9% of the time it is obvious. And the simple answer is when in doubt, do not enter until you have consulted withe local county property records office.SMRoot wrote: If the property boundaries are not clearly marked with a fence or purple paint, and you say, "stay off of my property," I have no idea where - precisely - you have banned me from going. I have to know what property belongs to you and what belongs to your neighbors.
No argument there. Here is something I find odd.SMRoot wrote: I find these laws odd. I find it odd that I can commit a crime by entering a place of business carrying something that can't be seen and is not causing a disturbance either to the property owner's business or the other patrons. I understand that those are the laws, and I will follow them, but I want to make sure I understand exactly where I am prohibited from carrying an effective mechanism for self-defense and where I'm not. I don't intend to disarm unless required by law or a higher power -like my wife. So, I wish that these laws excluded parking lots and garages and only applied to premises or fenced in areas where the boundary can be more precisely specified.
That was the point I was trying to make... 
I do not like this part of the law, just like most don't. I personally think it should be harder on private property owners to put up signs. I'm ok with verbal warnings because that allows me the opportunity to at least speak to said person about why I should be able to.Solaris wrote:No argument there. Here is something I find odd.
If I try to CC a gun into a secure area of an airport in Texas, and get caught, they have to let me leave with gun and no charges.
But if try CC a gun in the parking lot of the local gas station, and get caught I can be arrested on the spot.
But by legal statute and such and such, if you attempt/try, you haven't broken the law yet because you didn't make it into the secured area yet. If you were to be found with a gun inside the secured area you would/would be arrested on the spot.Solaris wrote: If I try to CC a gun into a secure area of an airport in Texas, and get caught, they have to let me leave with gun and no charges.
But if try CC a gun in the parking lot of the local gas station, and get caught I can be arrested on the spot.
You could be arrested on the spot for no seatbelt too, but you probably wouldn't be...goose wrote:But by legal statute and such and such, if you attempt/try, you haven't broken the law yet because you didn't make it into the secured area yet. If you were to be found with a gun inside the secured area you would/would be arrested on the spot.Solaris wrote: If I try to CC a gun into a secure area of an airport in Texas, and get caught, they have to let me leave with gun and no charges.
But if try CC a gun in the parking lot of the local gas station, and get caught I can be arrested on the spot.
As I type this I wonder if your frustration is with the parking lot, rather than the airport. Apologies if I missed your point.
