Your Hollowpoints ARE USELESS!

[allisji]

I don't understand why he's so concerned about a HPs ability to penetrate through bone. Maybe I'm missing something, but if it hits bone and stops, it still delivers as much energy as if it had traveled through the bone and stopped later. I guess it doesn't create as large of a wound channel, but I'm primarily concerned about hitting the bad guy hard and taking him down. I don't care about how much he bleeds afterwards.

Because energy dump as a wounding mechanism in handgun calibers is a myth and irrelevant.

So are you saying that energy transfer from a handgun round sans expansion would not create an expansive cavity because of the lower velocities? In which case I guess that you are supporting my assertion that it doesn't matter whether your not your bullet will penetrate bone or not. If it doesn't expand, then it's just creating a deeper, but smaller hole. But the force should be essentially the same unless it come out the other side with enough energy to continue doing damage beyond the target.

[bblhd672]

I couldn't watch the whole video, but I did look at the Underwood Ammo site - seems they have a lot of HP ammo for sale!

[TexasTornado]

This is almost the same argument as to which gun to carry. I have friends that will bash anyone that doesn't carry a glock. They think glocks are the second coming of christ. I get bashed all of the time for carrying a 1911. But that is what I like, it's what I'm proficient with, and it's what I practice with. I'm a firm believer in carry what you are comfortable with, and what you will practice with. Same goes for ammunition. I would not knock someone for carrying fmj's if they have never fed hp's through their gun. It would be asenine to do that. Carry what you know, and know what you carry.

This is for your friends...

[TexasTornado]

Key word here "Yankee" enough said.

HEY!!

But I got here soon as I could.

Since I fell for my Yankee I've decided there must be at least one good one...may as well make it two...well, as long as you're a Cowboys fan of course.

Well, I'm a fan of whomever is playing the Cowboys.

see that makes you look like a Yankee. What you need is a Witten jersey!

[jb2012]

This is almost the same argument as to which gun to carry. I have friends that will bash anyone that doesn't carry a glock. They think glocks are the second coming of christ. I get bashed all of the time for carrying a 1911. But that is what I like, it's what I'm proficient with, and it's what I practice with. I'm a firm believer in carry what you are comfortable with, and what you will practice with. Same goes for ammunition. I would not knock someone for carrying fmj's if they have never fed hp's through their gun. It would be asenine to do that. Carry what you know, and know what you carry.

This is for your friends...

haha I'll drink to that!

[The Annoyed Man]

Your Hollowpoints ARE USELESS!

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

[The Annoyed Man]

This is almost the same argument as to which gun to carry. I have friends that will bash anyone that doesn't carry a glock. They think glocks are the second coming of christ. I get bashed all of the time for carrying a 1911. But that is what I like, it's what I'm proficient with, and it's what I practice with. I'm a firm believer in carry what you are comfortable with, and what you will practice with. Same goes for ammunition. I would not knock someone for carrying fmj's if they have never fed hp's through their gun. It would be asenine to do that. Carry what you know, and know what you carry.

This is for your friends...

I've carried 1911 .45s, M&P45, XDM and XDS .45s, Kahr .45s, HK USPc .40, .357 snubbies, Kahr 9mms, Glock 9mms, .38 snubbies, Colt .380s, and Keltech .380s.

There are all kinds of guns. There are only 2 kinds of shooters - good ones and bad ones. Get good with whatever you carry, and then don't worry about it.

1911......it's like a Glock, except for metrosexuals.........

[The Annoyed Man]

I don't understand why he's so concerned about a HPs ability to penetrate through bone. Maybe I'm missing something, but if it hits bone and stops, it still delivers as much energy as if it had traveled through the bone and stopped later. I guess it doesn't create as large of a wound channel, but I'm primarily concerned about hitting the bad guy hard and taking him down. I don't care about how much he bleeds afterwards.

Because energy dump as a wounding mechanism in handgun calibers is a myth and irrelevant.

So are you saying that energy transfer from a handgun round sans expansion would not create an expansive cavity because of the lower velocities?

I didn't mention expansion, nor did I mention velocity so I'm not sure where you got that from my simple statement or what your point is.

In which case I guess that you are supporting my assertion that it doesn't matter whether your not your bullet will penetrate bone or not.

Actually, it does matter - very much so, and wound ballisticians such as Dr Martin Fackler say so, too. Let me give you a personal example to illustrate:

I attended an autopsy in Cape Town in the late 80s or early 90s when Glasers were a 'thing'. A cop had shot a vagrant (who was attacking him with a broken bottle) right center in the chest with one (no idea if those were standard issue or not), after which the vagrant ran off. There was a fair amount of tissue damage to the flesh covering the sternum, but the bullet itself blew up on the sternum and penetrated no further. How did the vagrant die? He jumped over the side of a railway bridge (to get away, one presumes) and died on impact about 40 or so feet below.

For the 'energy dump' fans, that guy sure 'absorbed all of the energy' - but it didn't slow him for a second; in practice he had what amounted to a flesh-wound.

If it doesn't expand, then it's just creating a deeper, but smaller hole.

Pretty much that's usually what happens; expansion makes a wider hole but simultaneously causes drag which slows down the bullet. A bullet which doesn't expand will make a hole of lesser diameter and usually penetrate deeper, yes.

But the force should be essentially the same unless it come out the other side with enough energy to continue doing damage beyond the target.

The force or energy by itself is irrelevant - it's what the energy makes the bullet do to the body that's relevant. It has to crush or tear tissue to do any damage.

Exactly. And theoretically, at least, a larger diameter JHP, fully expanded, has the potential to crush/tear a larger swath of tissue. The temporary wound cavity counts for something too. But the truth is that a fully expanded .45 caliber JHP fired into a lung, at a given depth without hitting another vital structure, is no more or less likely to be fatal than a fully expanded 9mm JHP into exactly the same lung at the same depth, also without hitting a vital structure. And, a 9mm bullet punching into the descending aorta is going to kill someone just as fast as a .45 bullet punching into the descending aorta. Both are going to cause a total vascular collapse, with complete incapacitation, followed by death shortly after.

So in the end, shot placement is still king. I like the .45 cartridge for the way it shoots, but I've been carrying 9mms almost exclusively for about almost a year now, and I don't feel underarmed.

[allisji]

Thanks for expounding on what you meant by that. I wasn't trying to debate you, I just wanted to understand what you were getting at.

To sum it up I guess what I think that you are saying is that a handgun bullet traveling at ~ 1000 ft/s does not carry enough mass for the impact force to be relevant. It is the wounding that will stop the threat and not the force. To be effective a bullet must have enough energy to create an effective wound.

I don't understand why he's so concerned about a HPs ability to penetrate through bone. Maybe I'm missing something, but if it hits bone and stops, it still delivers as much energy as if it had traveled through the bone and stopped later. I guess it doesn't create as large of a wound channel, but I'm primarily concerned about hitting the bad guy hard and taking him down. I don't care about how much he bleeds afterwards.

Because energy dump as a wounding mechanism in handgun calibers is a myth and irrelevant.

So are you saying that energy transfer from a handgun round sans expansion would not create an expansive cavity because of the lower velocities?

I didn't mention expansion, nor did I mention velocity so I'm not sure where you got that from my simple statement or what your point is. Expansion is (usually) a matter of bullet-design and velocity. Exceed the designed velocity-parameters of a hollow-point and it'll expand faster and penetrate less due to drag - push the bullet more slowly and it'll expand less and usually (not always, but typically) penetrate a bit deeper. Sometimes a hollow-point get clogged with clothing and doesn't expand as designed - and penetrates deeper again.

In which case I guess that you are supporting my assertion that it doesn't matter whether your not your bullet will penetrate bone or not.

Actually, it does matter - very much so, and wound ballisticians such as Dr Martin Fackler say so, too. Let me give you a personal example to illustrate:

I attended an autopsy in Cape Town in the late 80s or early 90s when Glasers were a 'thing'. A cop had shot a vagrant (who was attacking him with a broken bottle) right center in the chest with one (no idea if those were standard issue or not), after which the vagrant ran off. There was a fair amount of tissue damage to the flesh covering the sternum, but the bullet itself blew up on the sternum and penetrated no further. How did the vagrant die? He jumped over the side of a railway bridge (to get away, one presumes) and died on impact about 40 or so feet below.

For the 'energy dump' fans, that guy sure 'absorbed all of the energy' - but it didn't slow him for a second; in practice he had what amounted to a flesh-wound.

If it doesn't expand, then it's just creating a deeper, but smaller hole.

Pretty much that's usually what happens; expansion makes a wider hole but simultaneously causes drag which slows down the bullet. A bullet which doesn't expand will make a hole of roughly its caliber's diameter and usually penetrate deeper, yes.

But the force should be essentially the same unless it come out the other side with enough energy to continue doing damage beyond the target.

The force or energy by itself is irrelevant - it's what the energy makes the bullet do to the body that's relevant. It has to crush or tear tissue to do any damage; a bullet doesn't just stop and then dump a magical force of energy further into the body. Why? Because it's run out of steam at that point; there's nothing left to 'dump'.

[Soap]

Thousands of people watch this guy. He contradicts himself a lot and puts out bad information. I'm really starting to wonder about the people who conceal carry around me.

I like some of his videos. He's usually pretty entertaining. What he may lack in well thought-out commentary he makes up for with decent editing. Occasionally I like to hear his points of view on controversial topics, not because they mirror mine, because often they don't, but because he is pretty good at explaining his reasoning. Other times he uses to much crude humor for me.

This video was not his finest moment.

I don't understand why he's so concerned about a HPs ability to penetrate through bone. Maybe I'm missing something, but if it hits bone and stops, it still delivers as much energy as if it had traveled through the bone and stopped later. I guess it doesn't create as large of a wound channel, but I'm primarily concerned about hitting the bad guy hard and taking him down. I don't care about how much he bleeds afterwards.

I can understand the argument about deflection off of a surface like a window or whatever, but I see it as very unlikely as a private citizen that I will be a in situation where I am trying to shoot a threat through a window... Most likely I imagine I will be firing at someone who is either inside my home, or who has threatened me in public and refuses to stop after I have displayed my weapon.

The video before this one was even worse. I have joined their chat rooms that he partakes in on other channels. I truly believe the guy carries just to show off. I don't care what he does but he has a lot of influence on people who aren't to gun savvy. He's bad news. Give it a few weeks he'll change his mind on his carry gun, caliber and ammo. He always does.

[G.A. Heath]

Handguns are typically poor solutions to the "I need a weapon that works well" problem. 90% of the time the permanent wound channel is more important than energy delivered. The one potential exception is when you get a CNS (Central Nervous System) hit or you manage to hit a major bone (This often sends people and animals into shock, even if temporary). Regarding the transfer of energy, Rifles cause what is called hydrostatic Shock when they hit flesh, it's actually the same concept behind depth charges sinking submarines. Handguns lack the energy required to cause this effect so we have to rely on shot placement and permanent wound channel for stopping the threat.

Moving on to the permanent wound channel, the larger the channel the better (Not I did not specify depth or diameter, just larger). When we talk about the size of the permanent wound channel keep in mind it is the volume of the channel is what counts. Now let's imagine all hollow points expand to 150% of the original diameter and that FMJ's are a perfect 100% of their original size while the FMJ penetrates twice as far (4 inches)as the HP (2 inches). The HP creates a permanent wound channel from a .45 with volume of .716 inches and the FMJ creates a wound channel with a volume of .636 inches. So lets move that up to 3(HP) and 6(FMJ) inches of penetration resulting in 1.07 inches (HP) and .95 inches (FMJ). This is assuming that the FMJ will penetrate exactly double that of the HP. Now that is just playing with numbers, in reality things happen that can not be predicted. Lets say both bullets hit a relatively solid bone, the HP probably doesn't just stop, odds are it fragments sending some pieces around the bone while some, or even most, remain at the impact site. The FMJ will most likely deform and deflect as well, although the bullet will remain mostly (if not completely) intact. The majority of it's energy (like the HP) will likely remain at the impact site thus reducing it's penetration and effectiveness beyond the impact site. Overall if you are concerned about hollow points being effective then you need to put the handgun in a safe and grab a good rifle.