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I can't remember the last time I heard about a ND/AD (pick one) at a gun show that did NOT involve a vendor's gun.

I'm no expert at all on shotguns. But as it happens, I just read an article last night that suggested that a typical chambered shotgun does not have the drop safety, or general safety against firing without a trigger pull, that we expect from a handgun. Is that true?

If so, then I'd be careful about the whole ND vs AD argument. (If not, then ignore me.)

rocinante wrote:I'm no expert at all on shotguns. But as it happens, I just read an article last night that suggested that a typical chambered shotgun does not have the drop safety, or general safety against firing without a trigger pull, that we expect from a handgun. Is that true?

If so, then I'd be careful about the whole ND vs AD argument. (If not, then ignore me.)

Very few long guns have a firing pin block (drop safety). Some have a firing pin spring which minimizes the odds, but many don't. Think about an AR-15... No spring, no nothing.

Even if the shotgun did go off when dropped, you could easily argue that it was negligent for it to even be loaded.

This gun show has really gone downhill in the last few years. There are more jerky, jewelery, purse and candle tables than gun tables. No big vendors from Dallas or elsewhere show up for the show. Wish it would go back to being a gun show rather than flea market.

Glad that there were no critical injuries but wish that it had not happened to start with. Prayers for the people injured.

Even if the shotgun did go off when dropped, you could easily argue that it was negligent for it to even be loaded.

That was my point!!!

It was also negligent to pick up any gun and not verify it was unloaded prior to handling it. There is a reason they are referred to as ND's and not AD's. I actually had an AD one time when I was at the range and had the gun pointed down range and it went off (by my pulling the go button) but my brain did not make that decision right then. That was an AD, because I did not 'command' the gun to be fired at that point.

Most all discharges are referred to as ND because there was negligence involved and not unloading before a gun show.

Some people are offended by the word negligence because it infers they did something wrong where as the word accidental is a nicer word because it does not place blame. This is the society we live in, where as people are not responsible for their actions, and we have changed our wording to make people feel better about themselves!!!

Another problem with this thread is in the title. Shooting at .... The title infers someone intended to shoot someone else at a gun show. It does not describe the story accurately. It should read, ND at a Wichita Falls gun show

Everyone needs to remember that it's the unloaded guns that can kill you.

SIA

JerryK wrote:

Even if the shotgun did go off when dropped, you could easily argue that it was negligent for it to even be loaded.

That was my point!!!

It was also negligent to pick up any gun and not verify it was unloaded prior to handling it. There is a reason they are referred to as ND's and not AD's. I actually had an AD one time when I was at the range and had the gun pointed down range and it went off (by my pulling the go button) but my brain did not make that decision right then. That was an AD, because I did not 'command' the gun to be fired at that point.

Most all discharges are referred to as ND because there was negligence involved and not unloading before a gun show.

Some people are offended by the word negligence because it infers they did something wrong where as the word accidental is a nicer word because it does not place blame. This is the society we live in, where as people are not responsible for their actions, and we have changed our wording to make people feel better about themselves!!!

Another problem with this thread is in the title. Shooting at .... The title infers someone intended to shoot someone else at a gun show. It does not describe the story accurately. It should read, ND at a Wichita Falls gun show

How the post "should" read and how it does read is based on the info at hand when posted and based on news reports at the time. Was it human error, most likely. Was it negligence, most likely. Will it go to court, possibly. Humans make mistakes, plain and simple. I leave the negligence part to the lawyers.

It's fun to see who gets hypersensitive over the negligent vs accidental terms as if they are always mutually exclusive.

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Normally the only ones i see push to use the phrase " Accidental discharge" were involved in the event or have been previously involved in an ND...and most times will omit that gem...

Those responsible to investigate, review, recommend remedial action or punishment tend to call them negligent discharges based on findings...not just generalities....

If the shot gun fell off the counter due to not being secured and it discharged without having the trigger depressed by a human, it might be an accidental discharge.

If said human in a physical struggle with another human, or emergency event, depressed the trigger unintentionally, that might be an accidental discharge.

If said human depressed the trigger with finger, toe, nose or object by there doing intentionally.... it was a negligent discharge...IMHO...
An opinion that was made by me, accepted by many others and used several hundred times over the course of 28 years.

With many millions of humans, all very inventive and such, there are many ways to have an accidental discharge,,in my hard own personal experience, most are not an accident ..but negligent.

I kinda like the way this website's description on the difference between AD and ND.

http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2013/01/08/ ... discharge/

Negligent Discharge – a discharge of an officer’s firearm, whether intentional or not, that was primarily caused by the officer’s failure to follow established safety procedures or legal justifications for deadly force.

Accidental Discharge – an unintentional discharge of an officer’s firearm that was not caused by any negligence or failure to follow established safety procedures.

JerryK wrote:To err is human. To have a ND is stupid!!!

Negligent yes, stupid no. As humans, we are all susceptible to negligence. If we were not, we would never trip and fall, cut or burn ourselves, bash a finger with a hammer, fall off a step stool or ladder, have a car crash, etc., etc., etc. I don't think when we are negligent we are necessarily "stupid." Stupid people do not operate on you, yet they are sometimes negligent, or influenced by other factors, and make mistakes. Stupid people do not fly you worldwide in sophisticated aircraft, yet 85% of all aircraft accidents involve human error. So my point is that the incident at the gun show was likely negligent, but stupid is a long way from just being human.

rotor wrote:Today before the gun show opened a shooting occurred at the Wichita Falls gun show as a vendor shotgun went off injuring 3 people with birdshot. Apparently not life threatening, thankfully. This is the gun show that had posted 30.06 and 30.07 signs earlier this year and they were removed after my emails to the city manager.
I am glad that nobody was seriously hurt and that the incident did not involve a LTC holder. I don't know what the vendor's response is. I also don't know who checks the vendors guns but they always seem to be safety tied.

Well, you can rest assured that the presence (or lack thereof) of the 30.06 and/or 30.07 signs due to your involvement had no bearing on this incident. If you hear any grief from the previous posters of the signs, just remind them that shotguns are not covered - only handguns.

bblhd672 wrote:With two recent incidents of vendors not clearing the weapons they are selling before they arrive, it seems gun show promoters need to pay more attention to their vendors and quit worrying so much about LTC's carrrying in their shows.

This. The last 3 ND's I know of at gun shows, two were vendors and one was a LEO. LTC carriers, not so much.

Was this an accident or negligence? I see it was referred to as an "accident" in the thread.

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... e+accident

E.Marquez wrote:

It's fun to see who gets hypersensitive over the negligent vs accidental terms as if they are always mutually exclusive.

.

Normally the only ones i see push to use the phrase " Accidental discharge" were involved in the event or have been previously involved in an ND...and most times will omit that gem...

Those responsible to investigate, review, recommend remedial action or punishment tend to call them negligent discharges based on findings...not just generalities....

If the shot gun fell off the counter due to not being secured and it discharged without having the trigger depressed by a human, it might be an accidental discharge.

If said human in a physical struggle with another human, or emergency event, depressed the trigger unintentionally, that might be an accidental discharge.

If said human depressed the trigger with finger, toe, nose or object by there doing intentionally.... it was a negligent discharge...IMHO...
An opinion that was made by me, accepted by many others and used several hundred times over the course of 28 years.

With many millions of humans, all very inventive and such, there are many ways to have an accidental discharge,,in my hard own personal experience, most are not an accident ..but negligent.

mojo84 wrote:Was this an accident or negligence? I see it was referred to as an "accident" in the thread.

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... e+accident

Accident.. A part was created using established procedures and materials..a part that has been used successfully previously. The part and the machine were used in established known safe and prudent manner in accordance with all rules and laws.

Had I intentionally used a faulty part.
Had I intentionally used a part know to be substandard for the task
Had I intentionally created a part I knew to be substandard and used it anyway...
Had I intentionally used the motorcycle in an unsafe, imprudent manner, that was proximate cause for the part failure...
Id call that negligence..
Said another way.. I picked up a firearm believed to be in good condition, recently worked on, but passed dry fire tests, loaded it with the muzzle pointed a safe direction, aimed at the target, and touched the trigger but did not depress it, and the gun failed and fired unintentionally.

That would be an AD much like putting on all your gear, pre ride checking a motorcycle, riding it in a safe and legal manner and having a part believed to be in good working order fail..is an accident...not negligence.