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Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!
Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:54 pm
by philip964
There is a video of a jeweler, who is being robbed by armed men. It is on line some where. It is heartbreaking to watch as he attempts to rack the slide as he is hit. He repeatedly try's as he is hit again and again. As he sits on the floor dieing in front of our eyes. The final scene is the BG taking the gun from his hand.
If you ever see it you will only carry with one in the pipe.
Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!
Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:11 pm
by flechero
NNT wrote:Not arguing the point. But seems he was going to be in trouble regardless. Several Leo friends have said that closer than 21 feet it is impossible to draw before the BG is on you. Doesn't mean you should not try, but starting face to face you are at disadvantage.
He was in trouble either way but got the gun out and had it pointed at the BG... just w/o a round in the chamber. Poor family.
Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!
Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:31 pm
by carlson1
I have always thought for those who could not carry with one in the chamber it would be best for them to just carry a revolver. I am not knocking revolvers because I love them, but it is very dangerous to pull out an "unloaded pistol."
Re: Put u one in the chamber, or don't carry it!
Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:39 pm
by Noggin
carlson1 wrote:I have always thought for those who could not carry with one in the chamber it would be best for them to just carry a revolver.
Naturally you should get to know your intended defense tool very well and there is nothing better than practice. That said if unlike many of us here you are not an gun enthusiast. Then get something that is simpler. so that when you are under stress you have fewer conditions to consider the weapon might be in and do not have to practice clearing stoppages.
Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!
Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:54 am
by Liberty
The subject title bugs the bejabbers outta me.
The one thing worse than not carrying with the chamber loaded is not carrying at all. Advising folks to not carry at all is very bad advice. Meanwhile, the advice to carry something we are comfortable with is very good.
The choices to find an appropriate weapon for a new carrier are more difficult these days. A newbie has a lot of decisions to make picking out their first sidearm, and often must make these decisions with poor information. The wrong decisions in these cases at best are expensive, worst case can get the newbie hurt or killed.
Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!
Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:24 am
by Excaliber
ELB wrote:NNT wrote: .... that closer than 21 feet it is impossible to draw before the BG is on you. ...
Umm, maybe, sort of...
There is nothing holy...or legal...or illegal... about 21 feet. It roughly corresponds to the distance that a lot of people can cover in about 1.5 seconds if they are trying hard, and 1.5 seconds also roughly corresponds to the time required for a lot of people to draw and get the first shot off.
And this is all with people who know what's going on, they're on a range where they know the are about to have to draw and shoot as fast as possible. They are not at the convenience store checking the expiration date on a container of milk.
People who practice and are ready or forewarned, can draw in less than 1.5 seconds. On the other hand, a lot criminals do not stand 21 feet away and signal that they are attacking, either. They work to get in your face first, then launch. The bad guy has the initiative, he knows what he is going to do, but you don't, until he moves. Then you have to notice it, recognize it for what it is, decide what to do about it, and then do it. Then the actual draw starts...
People who have no other self-defense option than to draw and shoot in danger of trying solve a nut and bolt problem with a took designed for nail. Other options like getting off the X, punching, attacking the attacker's weapon, etc may be better options, depending on the distance, geometry, and weapons in the situation. But of course you have to have the skills to do those things.
Here are a couple decent articles about "the 21 foot rule" and/or "the Tueller Drill." One of them features Dennis Tueller himself. Worth a read.
Featuring Tueller:
https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/the-tu ... -revisited
Also:
http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/firea ... le-at-all/
I don't have sound on my computer at the moment, so all I got from the video was the movements, not the narration. It appeared to me that the victim was initially at a disadvantage because the robber had the initiative. The victim looked pretty rattled, it took a moment for him to respond , and initially he chose to comply, which bought him some time -- good move. It gave him a chance to take the initiative, to move away, to maybe get to edge of the robber's vision, and to execute a draw. Now the robber was the one who had to deal with his own reaction time, figure out that the tables were turned, decide what to do about. Unfortunately for the victim, not having a round in the chamber and having execute a slide-rack gave the robber enough time to work through his reaction -- and the robber was already keyed up and on alert.
The Tueller rule refers to edged weapons, not firearms, because an attacker with an edged weapon has to come to contact distance in order to engage. An attacker armed with a firearm can engage immediately at 21 feet or beyond. There is no 1.5 second "grace period."
Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!
Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:36 am
by bblhd672
Here's a very weird article on NRA's Shooting Illustrated website titled "How Safe is Carrying With a Round in the Chamber?"
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/art ... paign=0417
I clicked on it because of this thread to see what the "experts" on NRA websites had to say about the topic.
Go read it if you have time, you'll probably understand why it left me
Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!
Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:48 am
by Jusme
bblhd672 wrote:Here's a very weird article on NRA's Shooting Illustrated website titled "How Safe is Carrying With a Round in the Chamber?"
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/art ... paign=0417
I clicked on it because of this thread to see what the "experts" on NRA websites had to say about the topic.
Go read it if you have time, you'll probably understand why it left me
Confused me also, really didn't even address safety, it was more concerned with the added capacity of a round in the chamber. It also confused the folks leaving comments. Maybe the title was meant for another article.
Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!
Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:04 am
by warnmar10
bblhd672 wrote:Here's a very weird article on NRA's Shooting Illustrated website titled "How Safe is Carrying With a Round in the Chamber?"
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/art ... paign=0417
I clicked on it because of this thread to see what the "experts" on NRA websites had to say about the topic.
Go read it if you have time, you'll probably understand why it left me
Click bait.
Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!
Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:24 am
by PitBoss
Jago668 wrote:You don't drive around with your seatbelt off and say, "I'll have time to fasten it before the wreck."
Excellent point!
Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!
Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:04 am
by Charles L. Cotton
carlson1 wrote:I have always thought for those who could not carry with one in the chamber it would be best for them to just carry a revolver. I am not knocking revolvers because I love them, but it is very dangerous to pull out an "unloaded pistol."
That's my advice too, when someone insists on carrying an empty chamber. It's better to have 5 or 6 rounds you can use, than 15 you can't.
Chas.
Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!
Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:27 am
by oljames3
Charles L. Cotton wrote:carlson1 wrote:I have always thought for those who could not carry with one in the chamber it would be best for them to just carry a revolver. I am not knocking revolvers because I love them, but it is very dangerous to pull out an "unloaded pistol."
That's my advice too, when someone insists on carrying an empty chamber. It's better to have 5 or 6 rounds you can use, than 15 you can't.
Chas.
When my wife got her CHL and her first pistol (Ruger LCR .38) in 2013, she wanted to carry with the hammer on an empty cylinder. Since it made her more comfortable and made no change to the readiness of the pistol, I did not object. The downside was reducing the available rounds from 5 to 4. I felt that this was more than offset by the fact that she would, indeed, carry. She has become increasingly comfortable with carrying over the years and now carries a full cylinder.
Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!
Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:52 am
by cyphur
Unless you've had your sympathetic nervous system triggered by a similar event, it's hard to predict how you would react, or how your decision making process will be impacted. Knowing how it turned out makes the decisions for us easy. Unfortunately doing the right thing isn't always the best choice.
If you aren't willing to invest your time and money into training, a firearm is a hope, a chance at best. Unless you've trained to engage those firing back, those directly wishing to do you harm, moving and shooting under stress and physical duress, it's all speculation.
Carrying one in the chamber is the only way to do it, but in the grand scheme of things, it has very little to do with likelihood of a positive outcome. You'll fall back to your training, not rise to the occasion. Without the right mindset and forethought about a potential situation - you are only bringing a tool, not a weapon.
Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!
Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:02 pm
by Noggin
The Libtards running California did not recently pass some stupid law making it illegal to carry a pistol with a chambered round did they? It would not surprise me if they did, this was just a thought that popped into my head.
Re: Put one in the chamber, or don't carry it!
Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:44 pm
by HKMike
The seat belt and helmet analogies are excellent. Those analogies effectively point out that a device design begs to be used as intended. The seat belt only functions as intended if the user has fastened it across their body. The helmet is only effective if worn properly on the head and not strapped to the side of a motorcycle as mentioned earlier. I don't think firearms are any different at all. They are designed to launch a projectile at the intended target only when there is a round in the chamber, the safety or safeties have been disengaged, and the user pulls the trigger. Having said that, I'm not arguing anyone's personal choices as I'm an advocate of personal responsibility. I just tend to look at things from a purely functional perspective. If a handgun is carried for personal protection, I want the fewest possible hindrances to the function of that weapon. Under perfect conditions could I draw my weapon, rack the slide, and get on target effectively? Maybe, but I doubt that my gun would ever be drawn against another human being under perfect conditions. One in the pipe is my choice. It allows the weapon to function as intended. I've never been shot at or had my life directly threatened, so my reaction could be less than perfect. That will have to remain an unknown. What I do know is that my gun will fire when the trigger is pulled.