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Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:13 pm
by BBYC
Charles L. Cotton wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:34 pm
BBYC wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:55 pm
ScottDLS wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:06 amNo surprise. The same will happen at the Texas State Fair at Fair Park. Anyone care to be the proverbial "test case"? Authorities in Texas don't want LTC's to open carry. They will stop it regardless of the law.
If somebody is willing to be a test case and do an "audit" on camera, I bet the fudds and fredocons will whine about how the law abiding test case provoked the people who were just doing their job by violating the law.
You might want to reconsider the AG opinion on private non-profits using government property before you call for a test case.
Chas.
Are you talking about the AG opinion where he wrote, '
These statutes make no exception to that exception for property owned by a governmental entity but leased to a private entity, and to conclude that carrying a handgun on such property is prohibited would therefore require reading language into the statute beyond what the Legislature included." or a different one?
Unless there's a subsequent opinion reversing that, it seems every Texas peace officer can be reasonably expected to know they're likely committing a false arrest by making an arrest, or committing official oppression by using their public authority to exclude somebody who is obeying the law.
I think the good cops would welcome legal action that removes the bad apples from their ranks, to maintain their professional integrity and the respect of the public.
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:16 pm
by Charles L. Cotton
BBYC wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:13 pm
Charles L. Cotton wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:34 pm
BBYC wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:55 pm
ScottDLS wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:06 amNo surprise. The same will happen at the Texas State Fair at Fair Park. Anyone care to be the proverbial "test case"? Authorities in Texas don't want LTC's to open carry. They will stop it regardless of the law.
If somebody is willing to be a test case and do an "audit" on camera, I bet the fudds and fredocons will whine about how the law abiding test case provoked the people who were just doing their job by violating the law.
You might want to reconsider the AG opinion on private non-profits using government property before you call for a test case.
Chas.
Are you talking about the AG opinion where he wrote, '
These statutes make no exception to that exception for property owned by a governmental entity but leased to a private entity, and to conclude that carrying a handgun on such property is prohibited would therefore require reading language into the statute beyond what the Legislature included." or a different one?
Unless there's a subsequent opinion reversing that, it seems every Texas peace officer can be reasonably expected to know they're likely committing a false arrest by making an arrest, or committing official oppression by using their public authority to exclude somebody who is obeying the law.
I think the good cops would welcome legal action that removes the bad apples from their ranks, to maintain their professional integrity and the respect of the public.
As I noted in a prior post, yes that is the AG Opinion I referenced. Also as I said, it think the LTC would ultimately prevail on appeal, but after spending a lot of money doing so. Remember, AG Opinions do not carry the force of law; it's called an "opinion" for a reason.
No, not every LEO is going to be aware of AG Opinions, not by any stretch of the imagination. No, a LEO making an arrest will not be making a bad faith arrest based upon an untested AG Opinion.
Don't be so quick to call for a test case unless you are willing to put your own freedom and money to the test.
Chas.
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:03 pm
by ScottDLS
Which is why I suggested wouldn't want to be the "test case". On the other hand, since the offense is a class C misdemeanor, unless you choose to refuse to leave, I doubt whether it would come to an arrest.
I guess to
really be a "test case" you would have to refuse to leave after being confronted. Then the offense would be a class A misdemeanor, even though you wouldn't really be guilty of it under any reasonable reading of the statute. Then you would presumably get arrested. Then if you lost at trial (unjustly), you would have to appeal. When an appellate court then ruled in your favor (you hope), you would have that elusive "case law", on your side.
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:25 pm
by Jusme
ScottDLS wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:03 pm
Which is why I suggested wouldn't want to be the "test case". On the other hand, since the offense is a class C misdemeanor, unless you choose to refuse to leave, I doubt whether it would come to an arrest.
I guess to
really be a "test case" you would have to refuse to leave after being confronted. Then the offense would be a class A misdemeanor, even though you wouldn't really be guilty of it under any reasonable reading of the statute. Then you would presumably get arrested. Then if you lost at trial (unjustly), you would have to appeal. When an appellate court then ruled in your favor (you hope), you would have that elusive "case law", on your side.
And be a whole lot lighter in the wallet, with little or no recourse to recover any of it. We need to pressure our State reps to rectify, the law, so that the AG, doesn't have to render opinions, and it is spelled out in black and white. Another case of being restricted, where LEO, are not. JMHO
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:51 pm
by RogueUSMC
ScottDLS wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:03 pm
Which is why I suggested wouldn't want to be the "test case". On the other hand, since the offense is a class C misdemeanor, unless you choose to refuse to leave, I doubt whether it would come to an arrest.
I guess to
really be a "test case" you would have to refuse to leave after being confronted. Then the offense would be a class A misdemeanor, even though you wouldn't really be guilty of it under any reasonable reading of the statute. Then you would presumably get arrested. Then if you lost at trial (unjustly), you would have to appeal. When an appellate court then ruled in your favor (you hope), you would have that elusive "case law", on your side.
Even then, it could be charged as plain vanilla trespass without the gun needing to be an issue...then the whole thing falls flat. The 30.06/30.07 just ups the charge for a given trespass violation. If the DA wanted to just go with just the trespass, your who 'test case' goes out the window...
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:56 pm
by Ed4032
Pick your battles carefully.
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:16 pm
by ScottDLS
RogueUSMC wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:51 pm
ScottDLS wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:03 pm
Which is why I suggested wouldn't want to be the "test case". On the other hand, since the offense is a class C misdemeanor, unless you choose to refuse to leave, I doubt whether it would come to an arrest.
I guess to
really be a "test case" you would have to refuse to leave after being confronted. Then the offense would be a class A misdemeanor, even though you wouldn't really be guilty of it under any reasonable reading of the statute. Then you would presumably get arrested. Then if you lost at trial (unjustly), you would have to appeal. When an appellate court then ruled in your favor (you hope), you would have that elusive "case law", on your side.
Even then, it could be charged as plain vanilla trespass without the gun needing to be an issue...then the whole thing falls flat. The 30.06/30.07 just ups the charge for a given trespass violation. If the DA wanted to just go with just the trespass, your who 'test case' goes out the window...
To which you would have a statutory defense to prosecution in 30.05. So the "plain vanilla" trespass would have trouble.
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:37 pm
by WildRose
They need to be reported. Perhaps a short visit with the man/woman at the top first to educate them on the law would be helpful and could resolve it quietly but one way or another it needs to be resolved.
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:39 pm
by WildRose
Jusme wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:25 pm
ScottDLS wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:03 pm
Which is why I suggested wouldn't want to be the "test case". On the other hand, since the offense is a class C misdemeanor, unless you choose to refuse to leave, I doubt whether it would come to an arrest.
I guess to
really be a "test case" you would have to refuse to leave after being confronted. Then the offense would be a class A misdemeanor, even though you wouldn't really be guilty of it under any reasonable reading of the statute. Then you would presumably get arrested. Then if you lost at trial (unjustly), you would have to appeal. When an appellate court then ruled in your favor (you hope), you would have that elusive "case law", on your side.
And be a whole lot lighter in the wallet, with little or no recourse to recover any of it. We need to pressure our State reps to rectify, the law, so that the AG, doesn't have to render opinions, and it is spelled out in black and white. Another case of being restricted, where LEO, are not. JMHO
This is why the fines and court costs need to be laid on the officials abusing our rights personally rather than them continuing to do so on the taxpayer's dime.
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:53 pm
by jordanmills
ScottDLS wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:16 pm
RogueUSMC wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:51 pm
ScottDLS wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:03 pm
Which is why I suggested wouldn't want to be the "test case". On the other hand, since the offense is a class C misdemeanor, unless you choose to refuse to leave, I doubt whether it would come to an arrest.
I guess to
really be a "test case" you would have to refuse to leave after being confronted. Then the offense would be a class A misdemeanor, even though you wouldn't really be guilty of it under any reasonable reading of the statute. Then you would presumably get arrested. Then if you lost at trial (unjustly), you would have to appeal. When an appellate court then ruled in your favor (you hope), you would have that elusive "case law", on your side.
Even then, it could be charged as plain vanilla trespass without the gun needing to be an issue...then the whole thing falls flat. The 30.06/30.07 just ups the charge for a given trespass violation. If the DA wanted to just go with just the trespass, your who 'test case' goes out the window...
To which you would have a statutory defense to prosecution in 30.05. So the "plain vanilla" trespass would have trouble.
Basically depends on if they say that you can't be there because you have a gun with an LTC, or because they just plain don't want you there...
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:07 pm
by ScottDLS
jordanmills wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:53 pm
ScottDLS wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:16 pm
RogueUSMC wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:51 pm
ScottDLS wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:03 pm
Which is why I suggested wouldn't want to be the "test case". On the other hand, since the offense is a class C misdemeanor, unless you choose to refuse to leave, I doubt whether it would come to an arrest.
I guess to
really be a "test case" you would have to refuse to leave after being confronted. Then the offense would be a class A misdemeanor, even though you wouldn't really be guilty of it under any reasonable reading of the statute. Then you would presumably get arrested. Then if you lost at trial (unjustly), you would have to appeal. When an appellate court then ruled in your favor (you hope), you would have that elusive "case law", on your side.
Even then, it could be charged as plain vanilla trespass without the gun needing to be an issue...then the whole thing falls flat. The 30.06/30.07 just ups the charge for a given trespass violation. If the DA wanted to just go with just the trespass, your who 'test case' goes out the window...
To which you would have a statutory defense to prosecution in 30.05. So the "plain vanilla" trespass would have trouble.
Basically depends on if they say that you can't be there because you have a gun with an LTC, or because they just plain don't want you there...
Then the question becomes one of whether they can arbitrarily eject you from an event on public property. Presumably they would have to articulate a reason for your being asked to leave other than they don’t like your face. This is public property and in the case of the Fair they are not leasing it for their exclusive use, and may not have the authority to eject youmfrom city property.
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:00 pm
by jordanmills
ScottDLS wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:07 pm
jordanmills wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:53 pm
ScottDLS wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:16 pm
RogueUSMC wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:51 pm
ScottDLS wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:03 pm
Which is why I suggested wouldn't want to be the "test case". On the other hand, since the offense is a class C misdemeanor, unless you choose to refuse to leave, I doubt whether it would come to an arrest.
I guess to
really be a "test case" you would have to refuse to leave after being confronted. Then the offense would be a class A misdemeanor, even though you wouldn't really be guilty of it under any reasonable reading of the statute. Then you would presumably get arrested. Then if you lost at trial (unjustly), you would have to appeal. When an appellate court then ruled in your favor (you hope), you would have that elusive "case law", on your side.
Even then, it could be charged as plain vanilla trespass without the gun needing to be an issue...then the whole thing falls flat. The 30.06/30.07 just ups the charge for a given trespass violation. If the DA wanted to just go with just the trespass, your who 'test case' goes out the window...
To which you would have a statutory defense to prosecution in 30.05. So the "plain vanilla" trespass would have trouble.
Basically depends on if they say that you can't be there because you have a gun with an LTC, or because they just plain don't want you there...
Then the question becomes one of whether they can arbitrarily eject you from an event on public property. Presumably they would have to articulate a reason for your being asked to leave other than they don’t like your face. This is public property and in the case of the Fair they are not leasing it for their exclusive use, and may not have the authority to eject youmfrom city property.
It would be super if that were the case. But are we going to convince the big fish in these little ponds that pesky rights are worth more than dollars from their buddies?
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:05 pm
by WildRose
jordanmills wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:00 pm
ScottDLS wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:07 pm
jordanmills wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:53 pm
ScottDLS wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:16 pm
RogueUSMC wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:51 pm
ScottDLS wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:03 pm
Which is why I suggested wouldn't want to be the "test case". On the other hand, since the offense is a class C misdemeanor, unless you choose to refuse to leave, I doubt whether it would come to an arrest.
I guess to
really be a "test case" you would have to refuse to leave after being confronted. Then the offense would be a class A misdemeanor, even though you wouldn't really be guilty of it under any reasonable reading of the statute. Then you would presumably get arrested. Then if you lost at trial (unjustly), you would have to appeal. When an appellate court then ruled in your favor (you hope), you would have that elusive "case law", on your side.
Even then, it could be charged as plain vanilla trespass without the gun needing to be an issue...then the whole thing falls flat. The 30.06/30.07 just ups the charge for a given trespass violation. If the DA wanted to just go with just the trespass, your who 'test case' goes out the window...
To which you would have a statutory defense to prosecution in 30.05. So the "plain vanilla" trespass would have trouble.
Basically depends on if they say that you can't be there because you have a gun with an LTC, or because they just plain don't want you there...
Then the question becomes one of whether they can arbitrarily eject you from an event on public property. Presumably they would have to articulate a reason for your being asked to leave other than they don’t like your face. This is public property and in the case of the Fair they are not leasing it for their exclusive use, and may not have the authority to eject youmfrom city property.
It would be super if that were the case. But are we going to convince the big fish in these little ponds that pesky rights are worth more than dollars from their buddies?
They are neither our buddies nor their's. I think we'll probably see some more movement on that in the next session.
We all knew there would be some push back when the law changed but they've had more than ample time to work out the bugs and some of these folks are flat out abusing the citizens using their offices simply because they don't like the law.
At some point if they aren't going to recognize and protect our rights remedies have to be sought and just about everything else has been tried.
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:37 pm
by BBYC
WildRose wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:05 pm
At some point if they aren't going to recognize and protect our rights remedies have to be sought and just about everything else has been tried.
Only three of the four boxes have been given a fair chance this century.
Re: East Texas State Fair bans open carry guns, concealed carry still allowed
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:40 pm
by ninjabread
jordanmills wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:53 pm
ScottDLS wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:16 pm
RogueUSMC wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:51 pm
ScottDLS wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:03 pm
Which is why I suggested wouldn't want to be the "test case". On the other hand, since the offense is a class C misdemeanor, unless you choose to refuse to leave, I doubt whether it would come to an arrest.
I guess to
really be a "test case" you would have to refuse to leave after being confronted. Then the offense would be a class A misdemeanor, even though you wouldn't really be guilty of it under any reasonable reading of the statute. Then you would presumably get arrested. Then if you lost at trial (unjustly), you would have to appeal. When an appellate court then ruled in your favor (you hope), you would have that elusive "case law", on your side.
Even then, it could be charged as plain vanilla trespass without the gun needing to be an issue...then the whole thing falls flat. The 30.06/30.07 just ups the charge for a given trespass violation. If the DA wanted to just go with just the trespass, your who 'test case' goes out the window...
To which you would have a statutory defense to prosecution in 30.05. So the "plain vanilla" trespass would have trouble.
Basically depends on if they say that you can't be there because you have a gun with an LTC, or because they just plain don't want you there...
That's why it's so important to record the interaction, preferably covertly.
And why some object so much to citizens recording their interactions with the government.