Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy
Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton
Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy
Elmo,
Would you please rephrase as I've completely missed your point.
Thanks
Would you please rephrase as I've completely missed your point.
Thanks
Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy
Sorry, Abraham. No surprise.Abraham wrote:Elmo,
Would you please rephrase as I've completely missed your point.
Thanks
My reply to your question was intended to say, "Considerations such as you raised are not outlandish."
I will not be surprised to see some dumb gay serviceperson act out in public, but not many, and not often. But if this comes to the attention of command appropriate action will be taken, since command retains its authority to take such action after the repeal of DADT.
Elmo
Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy
Elmo,
Thanks.
I can be a little slow on the uptake...
If you and Purplehood are accurate in your predictions then all should bode well, however some of my concern is of the slippery slope variety, now that expulsion is no longer an issue - demands will be made.
After all, with gay legitimacy being recognized with this new policy, why can't gays act gay if they so choose, with all the concomitant spectrum of behavior?
Yes, I recognize that gays come in a wide variety of categories from stolid/stoic/non-effeminate to the extreme drag queen, but if gay is okay in the military, why wouldn't the broad spectrum of gayness be pushed for and found ultimately acceptable?
If this social phenomenon evolves with the passage of time, I can see straight folks bailing out of the military in droves...
Thanks.
I can be a little slow on the uptake...
If you and Purplehood are accurate in your predictions then all should bode well, however some of my concern is of the slippery slope variety, now that expulsion is no longer an issue - demands will be made.
After all, with gay legitimacy being recognized with this new policy, why can't gays act gay if they so choose, with all the concomitant spectrum of behavior?
Yes, I recognize that gays come in a wide variety of categories from stolid/stoic/non-effeminate to the extreme drag queen, but if gay is okay in the military, why wouldn't the broad spectrum of gayness be pushed for and found ultimately acceptable?
If this social phenomenon evolves with the passage of time, I can see straight folks bailing out of the military in droves...
- Purplehood
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4638
- Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 3:35 pm
- Location: Houston, TX
Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy
Abraham,Abraham wrote:Elmo,
Thanks.
I can be a little slow on the uptake...
If you and Purplehood are accurate in your predictions then all should bode well, however some of my concern is of the slippery slope variety, now that expulsion is no longer an issue - demands will be made.
After all, with gay legitimacy being recognized with this new policy, why can't gays act gay if they so choose, with all the concomitant spectrum of behavior?
Yes, I recognize that gays come in a wide variety of categories from stolid/stoic/non-effeminate to the extreme drag queen, but if gay is okay in the military, why wouldn't the broad spectrum of gayness be pushed for and found ultimately acceptable?
If this social phenomenon evolves with the passage of time, I can see straight folks bailing out of the military in droves...
I am guessing that you have not served in the Military. Please don't take that as an affront, merely an observation.
If you had served, I am guessing that you would come to the same conclusion as many of us Veterans. If Gays chose to act Gay in the Military, the regulations as they currently stand could and certainly would be used to drum them right out. The Military is about taking the initiative, but not about expressing ones diversity.
Life NRA
USMC 76-93
USAR 99-07 (Retired)
OEF 06-07
USMC 76-93
USAR 99-07 (Retired)
OEF 06-07
Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy
Abraham,
Understand that I do not intend to downplay your concern. Many have that same concern, including many of influence in the political and the military arenas. Witness Senator McCain and the Commandant of the Marine Corps. You are not alone.
If anyone learned during his military time that young servicemen were capable of doing dumb things, it was me. I once had them handed over to me every day. That is, my job caused me to see more than my fair share of them. But the overwhelming majority of them knew their responsibility to their buddies, their unit, their command, their service, the American people and their nation, and they met those responsibilities willingly and with honor, and I was so proud of them. In my not-so-humble opinion we are likely to see more problems caused by irrational prejudice, at all levels of rank, than from our gay servicepeople.
Take a look at this article, which I just stumbled over in the Times. It may help you to understand what Purplehood and I have been saying.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/20/us/po ... semailema4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Elmo
Understand that I do not intend to downplay your concern. Many have that same concern, including many of influence in the political and the military arenas. Witness Senator McCain and the Commandant of the Marine Corps. You are not alone.
If anyone learned during his military time that young servicemen were capable of doing dumb things, it was me. I once had them handed over to me every day. That is, my job caused me to see more than my fair share of them. But the overwhelming majority of them knew their responsibility to their buddies, their unit, their command, their service, the American people and their nation, and they met those responsibilities willingly and with honor, and I was so proud of them. In my not-so-humble opinion we are likely to see more problems caused by irrational prejudice, at all levels of rank, than from our gay servicepeople.
Take a look at this article, which I just stumbled over in the Times. It may help you to understand what Purplehood and I have been saying.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/20/us/po ... semailema4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Elmo
Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy
Because grooming and uniform standards are, as the saying goes, uniform.Abraham wrote:After all, with gay legitimacy being recognized with this new policy, why can't gays act gay if they so choose, with all the concomitant spectrum of behavior?
Yes, I recognize that gays come in a wide variety of categories from stolid/stoic/non-effeminate to the extreme drag queen, but if gay is okay in the military, why wouldn't the broad spectrum of gayness be pushed for and found ultimately acceptable?
What someone does off duty, or in the privacy of their off base housing, is very different from what they're allowed to do on duty. For example, carrying a FN Five-seveN is not prohibited off duty, assuming state law is followed, but that doesn't mean that behavior can't be prohibited on duty, or in base housing, even though RKBA is explicitly in the constitution.
If anyone is raped, beaten or murdered on a college campus from this day forward
The senators who blocked SB 354 from being considered on 4/7/11 and
The members of the house calendar committee who haven't scheduled HB 750
Have the victims' blood on their hands.
The senators who blocked SB 354 from being considered on 4/7/11 and
The members of the house calendar committee who haven't scheduled HB 750
Have the victims' blood on their hands.
Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy
It doesn't matter which side of the fence you fall on this issue. There is little doubt it is going to take years to sort out the problems. Imposing this on the military before they say they are ready would be foolish. Even when they say they are ready to implement, there will be many issues IMHO.
What I find interesting in the stories, such as the NY Times article, as well as most I've read, is the hypothetical scenarios posed. Most center around barracks, off duty or off base conduct, and not combat situations. There must have been some reason the combat arms, especially the Marines, were split 50/50 over this, as opposed to non-combat arms' much higher acceptance levels. I would be interested in seeing how the military would handle situations in front line units often directly engaged with enemy forces. If morale suffers, the consequences are far more severe than those in say, the finance unit.
Also, an inadequately trained leader in handling the new policy, NCO or commissioned, who makes a "questionable" decision on discipline, may have his/her career ended, or severely limited, in short order. It only takes one poor score on an efficiency/fitness report to make your career "toast" as a commissioned officer. So, my hope is that the military has a clear plan and TRAINING/GUIDANCE for ALL forces, combat and otherwise, before implementation of the new policy. if not, then there will issues that can damage our armed forces quality and ability to fight.
What I find interesting in the stories, such as the NY Times article, as well as most I've read, is the hypothetical scenarios posed. Most center around barracks, off duty or off base conduct, and not combat situations. There must have been some reason the combat arms, especially the Marines, were split 50/50 over this, as opposed to non-combat arms' much higher acceptance levels. I would be interested in seeing how the military would handle situations in front line units often directly engaged with enemy forces. If morale suffers, the consequences are far more severe than those in say, the finance unit.
Also, an inadequately trained leader in handling the new policy, NCO or commissioned, who makes a "questionable" decision on discipline, may have his/her career ended, or severely limited, in short order. It only takes one poor score on an efficiency/fitness report to make your career "toast" as a commissioned officer. So, my hope is that the military has a clear plan and TRAINING/GUIDANCE for ALL forces, combat and otherwise, before implementation of the new policy. if not, then there will issues that can damage our armed forces quality and ability to fight.
Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy
Purplehood,
I'm not offended in the least, but yes I served - Army Infantry for a number of years during the late sixties and early seventies.
No doubt, the attitude about homosexual soldiers then is quite different than today...
I wonder if the greater balance of servicemen and women serving today are as enlightened about such things as you and Elmo or are highly concerned about morale being negatively affected with the new policy?
Or, perhaps even offended with the new policy.
Yes, I recognize straight younger people are not ill at ease with gay folks or at least not as much as older guys like me, but perhaps those who are don't speak out for fear of not being politically correct...
I'm not offended in the least, but yes I served - Army Infantry for a number of years during the late sixties and early seventies.
No doubt, the attitude about homosexual soldiers then is quite different than today...
I wonder if the greater balance of servicemen and women serving today are as enlightened about such things as you and Elmo or are highly concerned about morale being negatively affected with the new policy?
Or, perhaps even offended with the new policy.
Yes, I recognize straight younger people are not ill at ease with gay folks or at least not as much as older guys like me, but perhaps those who are don't speak out for fear of not being politically correct...
- Purplehood
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4638
- Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 3:35 pm
- Location: Houston, TX
Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy
Abraham,Abraham wrote:Purplehood,
I'm not offended in the least, but yes I served - Army Infantry for a number of years during the late sixties and early seventies.
No doubt, the attitude about homosexual soldiers then is quite different than today...
I wonder if the greater balance of servicemen and women serving today are as enlightened about such things as you and Elmo or are highly concerned about morale being negatively affected with the new policy?
Or, perhaps even offended with the new policy.
Yes, I recognize straight younger people are not ill at ease with gay folks or at least not as much as older guys like me, but perhaps those who are don't speak out for fear of not being politically correct...
I can only guess where you are coming from, as you got out just as I was going into the Military (1976 - Parris Island, SC). When I entered the Marines I was a naive 17 year-old that had grown up as an Air Force brat. I didn't see a Black kid in any of my schools until High School. But I also grew up in an atmosphere where minorities serving in the Air Force appeared to be the norm.
As a result I went into the Marines with no conception that there was any animosity between the races among Service members. From what I later encountered I got the impression that the previous decades must have been rough (and that is where you indeed are "coming from"). I recall the Commandant of the Marine Corps (I assume at the order of someone above him) compelling ALL Marines to attend some sort of Cultural Sensitivity training. I don't recall what the official term for it was.
In any event, I learned that there were indeed dissatisfied Dark Green Marines (we were all Green Marines!) and Light Green Marines. Personally I didn't see why there were problems. But I did get the sense it wasn't just one-sided, that both sides of the issue were upset about integration.
Here we are 30+ years later (Forget 1948 when Truman officially ended Military segregation). The services appear to be integrated and we have a new issue with an even older problem for the Military. I liked the current Commandants response to the latest directive from the Commander in Chief. It was somewhere along the lines of, "We will get it done and get it done smartly".
I think things will work out. With the experience the Military has had integrating minorities, we should potentially have a smoother transition in order to accept a segment of the population that has been serving honorably for just as long as the Nation has existed.
Life NRA
USMC 76-93
USAR 99-07 (Retired)
OEF 06-07
USMC 76-93
USAR 99-07 (Retired)
OEF 06-07
Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy
Lordy, Lordy, Purplehood. You bring tears to this old man's eyes. They cannot see very well now, but they still tear up when they see our colors march by. This is undoubtedly the finest thing I have ever read on the Internet.Purplehood wrote:Abraham,Abraham wrote:Purplehood,
I'm not offended in the least, but yes I served - Army Infantry for a number of years during the late sixties and early seventies.
No doubt, the attitude about homosexual soldiers then is quite different than today...
I wonder if the greater balance of servicemen and women serving today are as enlightened about such things as you and Elmo or are highly concerned about morale being negatively affected with the new policy?
Or, perhaps even offended with the new policy.
Yes, I recognize straight younger people are not ill at ease with gay folks or at least not as much as older guys like me, but perhaps those who are don't speak out for fear of not being politically correct...
I can only guess where you are coming from, as you got out just as I was going into the Military (1976 - Parris Island, SC). When I entered the Marines I was a naive 17 year-old that had grown up as an Air Force brat. I didn't see a Black kid in any of my schools until High School. But I also grew up in an atmosphere where minorities serving in the Air Force appeared to be the norm.
As a result I went into the Marines with no conception that there was any animosity between the races among Service members. From what I later encountered I got the impression that the previous decades must have been rough (and that is where you indeed are "coming from"). I recall the Commandant of the Marine Corps (I assume at the order of someone above him) compelling ALL Marines to attend some sort of Cultural Sensitivity training. I don't recall what the official term for it was.
In any event, I learned that there were indeed dissatisfied Dark Green Marines (we were all Green Marines!) and Light Green Marines. Personally I didn't see why there were problems. But I did get the sense it wasn't just one-sided, that both sides of the issue were upset about integration.
Here we are 30+ years later (Forget 1948 when Truman officially ended Military segregation). The services appear to be integrated and we have a new issue with an even older problem for the Military. I liked the current Commandants response to the latest directive from the Commander in Chief. It was somewhere along the lines of, "We will get it done and get it done smartly".
I think things will work out. With the experience the Military has had integrating minorities, we should potentially have a smoother transition in order to accept a segment of the population that has been serving honorably for just as long as the Nation has existed.
What is so striking about your words is that they are from an honorably retired veteran of two combat arms who served in combat. This is a man who knows what he is talking about.
I retired from the military the year after you went to Parris Island. You have eliminated any remaining concerns I may have had about this latest step to full integration of our military. We survived the doom and gloom predicted with the integration of blacks before I put on a uniform and we became better; we survived the doom and gloom predicted with the integration of women in my day and we became better; we will survive this and will again become better. Our men and women in the military will continue to comprise the finest fighting force in the world. You, Purplehood, are shining proof of this.
I salute you, Sir.

Elmo
- Purplehood
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4638
- Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 3:35 pm
- Location: Houston, TX
Re: Calif judge to stop 'don't ask, don't tell' policy
Elmo,
Thanks, but it wasn't just me. It is every Veteran that makes this good stuff happen.
Thanks, but it wasn't just me. It is every Veteran that makes this good stuff happen.
Life NRA
USMC 76-93
USAR 99-07 (Retired)
OEF 06-07
USMC 76-93
USAR 99-07 (Retired)
OEF 06-07