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Re: obamacare upheld
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:12 pm
by VMI77
BillT wrote:Heartland Patriot wrote:
I'm just going to flat out call shenanigans on your posting. You are trolling, and nothing more. That "think of the children" stuff you're spouting is bunk and you know it. Now, go back to wherever your little friends are and tell them how cool you are for spinning up folks on a gun forum...
Sorry friend, I'm not going away! This is entirely too much fun!
As a firearms enthusiast all my life I have had to put up with the right wing extremism that is spouted by 60% of the people I encounter in the sport. I feel the obligation to try and enlighten folks just as you try and do. A bunch of right wing gun nuts aren't going to sway any national election. The issues are a lot bigger than what this forum is about. I'm just trying to give you guys a sporting chance in the next life you live! Take a blood pressure pill and relax, there's a ton of debate to be had between now and November. If I'm trolling, sorry if I snagged one of your nerves! That was not my intent. It would be a waste of my time. If you think there are not children affected by all of this your already living in denial. No one can help you with that. But have a nice day anyway....
You're obviously your number one fan.
You must have a lot of "gravitas" to go with your "enlightenment" because either none of it is escaping your position in space or it's not in the visible spectrum. I don't think you're trolling because I don't believe a bottom feeder can troll.
As to all those children you speak of let me shine a little light in your direction, though it will probably disappear into your gravity well of self-adulation: no one here denies that there are "affected" children, some of us probably think you're "affected" too --the message in the light that can't penetrate your galaxy of self-admiration is that WE are not responsible for YOUR decisions and YOUR children.
You, and everyone else, are free to have all of them you can pay for.
What you're not free to do is make the rest of us pay for your irresponsible decisions and behavior --well, at least this used to be true where we used to live, in the former Constitutional Republic of the United States of America.
Re: obamacare upheld
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:31 pm
by Slowplay
BillT wrote:Heartland Patriot wrote:
I'm just going to flat out call shenanigans on your posting. You are trolling, and nothing more. That "think of the children" stuff you're spouting is bunk and you know it. Now, go back to wherever your little friends are and tell them how cool you are for spinning up folks on a gun forum...
Sorry friend, I'm not going away! This is entirely too much fun!
As a firearms enthusiast all my life I have had to put up with the right wing extremism that is spouted by 60% of the people I encounter in the sport. I feel the obligation to try and enlighten folks just as you try and do. A bunch of right wing gun nuts aren't going to sway any national election. The issues are a lot bigger than what this forum is about. I'm just trying to give you guys a sporting chance in the next life you live! Take a blood pressure pill and relax, there's a ton of debate to be had between now and November. If I'm trolling, sorry if I snagged one of your nerves! That was not my intent. It would be a waste of my time. If you think there are not children affected by all of this your already living in denial. No one can help you with that. But have a nice day anyway....
Pathetic...
You don't seem to know much of anything about existing welfare state programs, including recent expansion of CHIP, do you?
Instead of calling a bunch of us "right wing gun nuts," why don't you stop embarassing yourself. Read this (link below) and tell me how you can live with yourself knowing that CHIP was there, and you did nothing to help....
BillT wrote:I have had many first hand experiences with children suffering and sometimes dying for lack of health care.
http://www.medicaid.gov/Medicaid-CHIP-P ... HIPRA.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: obamacare upheld
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:58 pm
by Mack
VMI77 wrote:BillT wrote:Heartland Patriot wrote:
I'm just going to flat out call shenanigans on your posting. You are trolling, and nothing more. That "think of the children" stuff you're spouting is bunk and you know it. Now, go back to wherever your little friends are and tell them how cool you are for spinning up folks on a gun forum...
Sorry friend, I'm not going away! This is entirely too much fun!
As a firearms enthusiast all my life I have had to put up with the right wing extremism that is spouted by 60% of the people I encounter in the sport. I feel the obligation to try and enlighten folks just as you try and do. A bunch of right wing gun nuts aren't going to sway any national election. The issues are a lot bigger than what this forum is about. I'm just trying to give you guys a sporting chance in the next life you live! Take a blood pressure pill and relax, there's a ton of debate to be had between now and November. If I'm trolling, sorry if I snagged one of your nerves! That was not my intent. It would be a waste of my time. If you think there are not children affected by all of this your already living in denial. No one can help you with that. But have a nice day anyway....
You're obviously your number one fan.
You must have a lot of "gravitas" to go with your "enlightenment" because either none of it is escaping your position in space or it's not in the visible spectrum. I don't think you're trolling because I don't believe a bottom feeder can troll.
As to all those children you speak of let me shine a little light in your direction, though it will probably disappear into your gravity well of self-adulation: no one here denies that there are "affected" children, some of us probably think you're "affected" too --the message in the light that can't penetrate your galaxy of self-admiration is that WE are not responsible for YOUR decisions and YOUR children.
You, and everyone else, are free to have all of them you can pay for.
What you're not free to do is make the rest of us pay for your irresponsible decisions and behavior --well, at least this used to be true where we used to live, in the former Constitutional Republic of the United States of America.
That sums it up nicely in my opinion! Thank you for expressing exactly what I am feeling!
Re: obamacare upheld
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:12 pm
by fickman
Maybe Roberts fears some of the older justices are close to retiring and he needs to expedite getting a Republican in the White House.
His points seem to be:
1) If you can find a way to read a law as Constitutional, you should do so.
I think this is restraint.
2) The people elected the lawmakers and the law-signer, unless they clearly violate the Constitution, the people have to live with the consequences of that vote.
We made our beds. . .
Congress can essentially tax anything. There is no revolution to be had. . . this time (unlike under King George), we had representation. If we don't like it, we have recourse.
I really think this is the conclusion Roberts is hoping to drive us to. I don't like the results of his vote, but he might have been right to cast it. We shouldn't cross our fingers and hope the courts protect us from the people we elect. We should elect better people.
If the law had been struck down, it would have leveled the playing field a lot for BHO in the Fall. I still think the GOP has an uphill battle, but I think Romney's chances went up yesterday. I don't think this is WHY Roberts made his vote, but I think he knew it.
Heck, yesterday was the first time I got excited to hear Romney speak. That's significant.
The base is rallied. The swing votes are leaning. It should be a fun four months.
Re: obamacare upheld
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:20 pm
by Heartland Patriot
BillT wrote:Heartland Patriot wrote:
I'm just going to flat out call shenanigans on your posting. You are trolling, and nothing more. That "think of the children" stuff you're spouting is bunk and you know it. Now, go back to wherever your little friends are and tell them how cool you are for spinning up folks on a gun forum...
Sorry friend, I'm not going away! This is entirely too much fun!
As a firearms enthusiast all my life I have had to put up with the right wing extremism that is spouted by 60% of the people
I encounter in the sport. I feel the obligation to try and enlighten folks just as you try and do. A bunch of right wing gun nuts aren't going to sway any national election. The issues are a lot bigger than what this forum is about. I'm just trying to give you guys a sporting chance in the next life you live! Take a blood pressure pill and relax, there's a ton of debate to be had between now and November. If I'm trolling, sorry if I snagged one of your nerves! That was not my intent. It would be a waste of my time. If you think there are not children affected by all of this your already living in denial. No one can help you with that. But have a nice day anyway....
See, there is one part your problem. You think firearms are about "sport" when that is only one little piece of it. Firearms are primarily NOT about "sport". They are about self-defense and they are about blocking our government, or any other, from tyranny, at least that is why the Second Amendment exists...not for "sport". I guess you don't bother to read history books, to look at what all has happened before. You live in some sort of fantasy land where if we all just "shared" and sang little songs together, then the world would be some magical perfect place. Well, it has NEVER worked like that and it will NEVER work like that, at least not on this earth. There will always be actual bad guys and gals that want to do nefarious stuff, and you and your roses and sunshine mentality ain't going to make one whit of difference to that. But it sure can put the rest of us in a bind to be able to defend ourselves against said bad guys.
Re: obamacare upheld
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:23 pm
by Heartland Patriot
fickman wrote:Maybe Roberts fears some of the older justices are close to retiring and he needs to expedite getting a Republican in the White House.
His points seem to be:
1) If you can find a way to read a law as Constitutional, you should do so.
I think this is restraint.
2) The people elected the lawmakers and the law-signer, unless they clearly violate the Constitution, the people have to live with the consequences of that vote.
We made our beds. . .
Congress can essentially tax anything. There is no revolution to be had. . . this time (unlike under King George), we had representation. If we don't like it, we have recourse.
I really think this is the conclusion Roberts is hoping to drive us to. I don't like the results of his vote, but he might have been right to cast it. We shouldn't cross our fingers and hope the courts protect us from the people we elect. We should elect better people.
If the law had been struck down, it would have leveled the playing field a lot for BHO in the Fall. I still think the GOP has an uphill battle, but I think Romney's chances went up yesterday. I don't think this is WHY Roberts made his vote, but I think he knew it.
Heck, yesterday was the first time I got excited to hear Romney speak. That's significant.
The base is rallied. The swing votes are leaning. It should be a fun four months.
Yes, you called it correctly there.
Re: obamacare upheld
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:34 pm
by VMI77
fickman wrote:2) The people elected the lawmakers and the law-signer, unless they clearly violate the Constitution, the people have to live with the consequences of that vote. We made our beds. . .
It does clearly violate the Constitution. Without even getting into the other elements of law as they relate to Congress, if you accept the penalty as a tax, then it must be initiated in the House because the Constitution requires revenue Bills to originate in the House. Also, aside from the income tax, the Constitution prohibits Congress from passing a tax on individuals that isn't apportioned by census. Furthermore, the logical contortion necessary to call it simultaneously a tax and a penalty doesn't meet the interpretive doctrine you allude to. And anyway you look at it the decision allows Congress to force people not engaged in commerce to buy a product they don't want or need. This is unprecedented.
fickman wrote:Congress can essentially tax anything. There is no revolution to be had. . . this time (unlike under King George), we had representation. If we don't like it, we have recourse.
That's not our history but that's our future. I won't even argue the claim that we had representation, though a good argument can be made that we really don't....however, we don't have any practical recourse, only serendipitous recourse. The SC just removed all limits on Congressional power by enabling it to coerce any activity by labeling it a tax. There are only two ways to change that: 1) a court ruling that overturns that decision (which suggests the appointment of a new justice favorable to such a decision; and 2) a Constitutional amendment.
fickman wrote:I really think this is the conclusion Roberts is hoping to drive us to. I don't like the results of his vote, but he might have been right to cast it. We shouldn't cross our fingers and hope the courts protect us from the people we elect. We should elect better people.
That's a nice theory but the system is rigged to prevent it.
Re: obamacare upheld
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:52 pm
by fickman
VMI77 wrote:fickman wrote:2) The people elected the lawmakers and the law-signer, unless they clearly violate the Constitution, the people have to live with the consequences of that vote. We made our beds. . .
It does clearly violate the Constitution. Without even getting into the other elements of law as they relate to Congress, if you accept the penalty as a tax, then it must be initiated in the House because the Constitution requires revenue Bills to originate in the House. Also, aside from the income tax, the Constitution prohibits Congress from passing a tax on individuals that isn't apportioned by census. Furthermore, the logical contortion necessary to call it simultaneously a tax and a penalty doesn't meet the interpretive doctrine you allude to. And anyway you look at it the decision allows Congress to force people not engaged in commerce to buy a product they don't want or need. This is unprecedented.
fickman wrote:Congress can essentially tax anything. There is no revolution to be had. . . this time (unlike under King George), we had representation. If we don't like it, we have recourse.
That's not our history but that's our future. I won't even argue the claim that we had representation, though a good argument can be made that we really don't....however, we don't have any practical recourse, only serendipitous recourse. The SC just removed all limits on Congressional power by enabling it to coerce any activity by labeling it a tax. There are only two ways to change that: 1) a court ruling that overturns that decision (which suggests the appointment of a new justice favorable to such a decision; and 2) a Constitutional amendment.
fickman wrote:I really think this is the conclusion Roberts is hoping to drive us to. I don't like the results of his vote, but he might have been right to cast it. We shouldn't cross our fingers and hope the courts protect us from the people we elect. We should elect better people.
That's a nice theory but the system is rigged to prevent it.
FWIW, I agree with you. . . I was trying to interpret where Roberts may be sitting and tried to find some silver lining. At the end of the day, the final sentiment is my conclusion. . .
The SC isn't the childproofing mechanism to save the electorate from those we elect. People (preaching to the choir here) need to realize that what they do in the ballot box really does impact life, our future, and our vitality as a nation. The masses were very flippant with their votes in 2008, and we don't presently have a mop big enough for the mess it created.
Re: obamacare upheld
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:35 pm
by tacticool
Why do I keep thinking about an old Pace Picante commercial?
Re: obamacare upheld
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:55 pm
by AEA
Good one!
Re: obamacare upheld
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:18 pm
by Kythas
VMI77 wrote:
Also, aside from the income tax, the Constitution prohibits Congress from passing a tax on individuals that isn't apportioned by census. .
I was about to shoot this argument down by stating the 16th Amendment does away with apportionment for all taxes, but as I re-read it I saw that you're right. The 16th does only apply to income tax.
Thanks for pointing that out to me.
Re: obamacare upheld
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:31 pm
by Dave2
So... I was watching Fox News today, and the democrats they had on were insisting that this really is a fine or penalty instead of a tax... Does that mean it's unconstitutional again?
Re: obamacare upheld
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:48 pm
by Katygunnut
Now that we have cleared up the issue of whether the government can tax inactivity, here is a short list of inactions I propose to tax:
Failure to vote (assuming you are qualified): Taxed at $10,000 per local / state election, $100,000 for national elections
Failure to be properly educated on the issues at hand in an election: Taxed at the same rates as above
Failure to memorize the US constitution, including all ammendments: $100,000 per year, starting at age 18
Failure to obtain english proficiency by the time you are 18 years old (ebonics don't count): $50,000 per year
Failure to raise children who show proper respect to their elders: $10,000 per year, per child
Failure to serve in the US Military for a minumum of 2 years prior to one's 25th birthday: $100,000 per year for the rest of your life
Failure to donate a minimum of 10% of your income to an "approved" charity: 10% income tax
Failure by a Man to open a door for a Lady: $100 per occurrence, unless it can be shown that the female in question "ain't no Lady". In other words, no need to open a door for Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton, or the like.
Some of these would require additional definition, including appropriate testing procedures, but we can bury all that in the bill and read that stuff after it's passed.
Since the majority can now constitutionally force the minority to do ANYTHING they want, all we need is for right minded representatives to take over the majority.
Re: obamacare upheld
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:50 pm
by The Annoyed Man
Dave2 wrote:So... I was watching Fox News today, and the democrats they had on were insisting that this really is a fine or penalty instead of a tax... Does that mean it's unconstitutional again?
No, it means that, as usual, they're lying again, just like they did when they were selling this pile of fish guts to us and saying then that it wasn't a tax. Democrats wouldn't know the truth if it bit 'em in the butt.
Re: obamacare upheld
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:58 pm
by sjfcontrol
Juliet:
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."
However, I'm not so sure what we are smelling, smells sweet...
