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baseballguy2001 wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:00 pm Paldin has a very good point. Had the police stopped handcuffing & detaining parents who were trying to rescue their children, and went after the BG, how ever they were armed, there may well had been more survivors. 10 regular, armed citizens with Glocks (or similar) will stop one BG with an AR-15 every time. If the cops were going to stand down, then they should have handed their weapons over and allowed citizens to stop the threat.

Do Psychiatric Meds and War Games Lead to Mass Shootings?

-97.8% of mass shootings occur in “gun-free zones,” as the perpetrators know legally armed citizens won’t be there to stop them

-Depression per se rarely results in violence. Only after antidepressants became commonplace did mass shootings really take off, and many mass shooters have been shown to be on antidepressants

-Antidepressants, especially selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), are well-known for their ability to cause suicidal and homicidal ideation and violence

How can we possibly ignore the connection between rampant use of drugs known to directly cause violent behavior and the rise in mass shootings? Suicidal ideation, violence and homicidal ideation are all known side effects of these drugs. Sometimes, the drugs disrupt brain function so dramatically the perpetrator can’t even remember what they did.

...The researchers concluded that violence against others was a “genuine and serious adverse drug event” and that of the drugs analyzed, SSRI antidepressants and the smoking cessation medication, varenicline (Chantix), had the strongest associations. The top-five most dangerous SSRIs were:13

Fluoxetine (Prozac), which increased aggressive behavior 10.9 times
Paroxetine (Paxil), which increased violent behavior 10.3 times
Fluvoxamine (Luvox), which increased violent behavior 8.4 times
Venlafaxine (Effexor), which increased violent behavior 8.3 times
Desvenlafaxine (Pristiq), which increased violent behavior 7.9 times

I went through mist of the posts in this thread and did not see this mentioned. Apologies if I missed it.

I know that the police do not have an affirmative legal duty to protect us from crime. But in this case, the police went a step further and actively assisted the criminal by preventing others from defending their children from harm. Does this not open them up to potential liability? Also, would the parents have been legally justified in using force to get through the police who were trying to prevent them from stopping the crime in progress.

Basically - If you don't want to help, fine. But at least get out of the way of those who are trying to help.

03Lightningrocks wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:20 am

baseballguy2001 wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:00 pm Paldin has a very good point. Had the police stopped handcuffing & detaining parents who were trying to rescue their children, and went after the BG, how ever they were armed, there may well had been more survivors. 10 regular, armed citizens with Glocks (or similar) will stop one BG with an AR-15 every time. If the cops were going to stand down, then they should have handed their weapons over and allowed citizens to stop the threat.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/breaking ... eport-says
Video Shows Police Never Tried To Open Door To Get In Texas Classroom Where Shooter Was, Report Says

Law enforcement officials reportedly never tried to open the door at a Texas elementary school last month where a shooter murdered 19 children.

“Surveillance footage shows that police never tried to open a door to two classrooms at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde in the 77 minutes between the time a gunman entered the rooms and massacred 21 people and officers finally breached the door and killed him,” the San Antonio Express-News reported, noting that the information came from a law enforcement official who was involved in investigating law enforcement’s response to the tragedy. “Investigators believe the 18-year-old gunman who killed 19 children and two teachers at the school on May 24 could not have locked the door to the connected classrooms from the inside.”

At some point, citizens have to serve notice to their local police departments that if they’re not going to do the hard part of their jobs, then they can all be fired and the citizens will take matters into their own hands. Failing that, cut their salaries in half. You shouldn’t have to pay someone that much money if all they’re going to do is write traffic tickets and take reports.

The Annoyed Man wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 8:51 pm

03Lightningrocks wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:20 am

baseballguy2001 wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:00 pm Paldin has a very good point. Had the police stopped handcuffing & detaining parents who were trying to rescue their children, and went after the BG, how ever they were armed, there may well had been more survivors. 10 regular, armed citizens with Glocks (or similar) will stop one BG with an AR-15 every time. If the cops were going to stand down, then they should have handed their weapons over and allowed citizens to stop the threat.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/breaking ... eport-says
Video Shows Police Never Tried To Open Door To Get In Texas Classroom Where Shooter Was, Report Says

Law enforcement officials reportedly never tried to open the door at a Texas elementary school last month where a shooter murdered 19 children.

“Surveillance footage shows that police never tried to open a door to two classrooms at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde in the 77 minutes between the time a gunman entered the rooms and massacred 21 people and officers finally breached the door and killed him,” the San Antonio Express-News reported, noting that the information came from a law enforcement official who was involved in investigating law enforcement’s response to the tragedy. “Investigators believe the 18-year-old gunman who killed 19 children and two teachers at the school on May 24 could not have locked the door to the connected classrooms from the inside.”

At some point, citizens have to serve notice to their local police departments that if they’re not going to do the hard part of their jobs, then they can all be fired and the citizens will take matters into their own hands. Failing that, cut their salaries in half. You shouldn’t have to pay someone that much money if all they’re going to do is write traffic tickets and take reports.

A lot of smaller towns in rural counties would be better served by ditching the town PD and just beefing up their sheriff's department with more deputies. The sheriff is an elected official, and more easily booted out come election time, and thus more responsive to the voters.

https://www.insider.com/uvalde-classroo ... ays-2022-6

Apparently even if the door was locked, they had a halligan pry bar to open the door.

philip964 wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:44 pm https://www.insider.com/uvalde-classroo ... ays-2022-6

Apparently even if the door was locked, they had a halligan pry bar to open the door.

Uvalde police didn't check to see if the door to the two connected classrooms the Robb Elementary shooter barricaded himself in with children was unlocked, a source close to the investigation told the San Antonio Express-News...after viewing surveillance footage, investigators believed the doors may have not been able to be locked from the inside due to a malfunction, the source the Express-News.

It is a certainty that law enforcement had access to tool that could be used to pry the door open, but its pretty jaw dropping that apparently the doors were never locked in the first place.

Paladin wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:37 pm

philip964 wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:44 pm https://www.insider.com/uvalde-classroo ... ays-2022-6

Apparently even if the door was locked, they had a halligan pry bar to open the door.

Uvalde police didn't check to see if the door to the two connected classrooms the Robb Elementary shooter barricaded himself in with children was unlocked, a source close to the investigation told the San Antonio Express-News...after viewing surveillance footage, investigators believed the doors may have not been able to be locked from the inside due to a malfunction, the source the Express-News.

It is a certainty that law enforcement had access to tool that could be used to pry the door open, but its pretty jaw dropping that apparently the doors were never locked in the first place.

I have a couple problems with this, besides the anonymous "law enforcement" source. First, the article does not say police had the tool, but they had access to it. This is, of course, a true statement. I have never seen a police patrol car with a halligan tool in it. But police do have access to it, by calling for the fire department, who has them on almost all trucks, to bring them one. I don't know if that was done or when, but saying the police "had access" to the tool does not mean they had it immediately available.

In the second, a source close to the investigation says that investigators viewed the video footage and believe there was a malfunction where the door could not be locked from the inside. Unless there is a big hole in the door where the lock used to be, how can anyone tell if it works by looking at a video of it later?

There is still too much mis- or dis-information being played in the media on this event. I don't generally trust the mass media, and in this case, I certainly cannot. An event where they can bad mouth both guns and cops is just too tempting for them to ever tell the truth.

srothstein wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:08 pm

Paladin wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:37 pm

philip964 wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:44 pm https://www.insider.com/uvalde-classroo ... ays-2022-6

Apparently even if the door was locked, they had a halligan pry bar to open the door.

Uvalde police didn't check to see if the door to the two connected classrooms the Robb Elementary shooter barricaded himself in with children was unlocked, a source close to the investigation told the San Antonio Express-News...after viewing surveillance footage, investigators believed the doors may have not been able to be locked from the inside due to a malfunction, the source the Express-News.

It is a certainty that law enforcement had access to tool that could be used to pry the door open, but its pretty jaw dropping that apparently the doors were never locked in the first place.

I have a couple problems with this, besides the anonymous "law enforcement" source. First, the article does not say police had the tool, but they had access to it. This is, of course, a true statement. I have never seen a police patrol car with a halligan tool in it. But police do have access to it, by calling for the fire department, who has them on almost all trucks, to bring them one. I don't know if that was done or when, but saying the police "had access" to the tool does not mean they had it immediately available.

In the second, a source close to the investigation says that investigators viewed the video footage and believe there was a malfunction where the door could not be locked from the inside. Unless there is a big hole in the door where the lock used to be, how can anyone tell if it works by looking at a video of it later?

There is still too much mis- or dis-information being played in the media on this event. I don't generally trust the mass media, and in this case, I certainly cannot. An event where they can bad mouth both guns and cops is just too tempting for them to ever tell the truth.

The Uvalde Fire station is 1.1 miles from the school. Good question is if anyone even asked them for assistance.

Paladin wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:47 am

srothstein wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:08 pm

Paladin wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:37 pm

philip964 wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:44 pm https://www.insider.com/uvalde-classroo ... ays-2022-6

Apparently even if the door was locked, they had a halligan pry bar to open the door.

Uvalde police didn't check to see if the door to the two connected classrooms the Robb Elementary shooter barricaded himself in with children was unlocked, a source close to the investigation told the San Antonio Express-News...after viewing surveillance footage, investigators believed the doors may have not been able to be locked from the inside due to a malfunction, the source the Express-News.

It is a certainty that law enforcement had access to tool that could be used to pry the door open, but its pretty jaw dropping that apparently the doors were never locked in the first place.

I have a couple problems with this, besides the anonymous "law enforcement" source. First, the article does not say police had the tool, but they had access to it. This is, of course, a true statement. I have never seen a police patrol car with a halligan tool in it. But police do have access to it, by calling for the fire department, who has them on almost all trucks, to bring them one. I don't know if that was done or when, but saying the police "had access" to the tool does not mean they had it immediately available.

In the second, a source close to the investigation says that investigators viewed the video footage and believe there was a malfunction where the door could not be locked from the inside. Unless there is a big hole in the door where the lock used to be, how can anyone tell if it works by looking at a video of it later?

There is still too much mis- or dis-information being played in the media on this event. I don't generally trust the mass media, and in this case, I certainly cannot. An event where they can bad mouth both guns and cops is just too tempting for them to ever tell the truth.

The Uvalde Fire station is 1.1 miles from the school. Good question is if anyone even asked them for assistance.

The Uvalde Fire department is a volunteer FD, and if they are like many in my area they will have multiple members who are active and part of the local LE and/or EMS departments. You can bet that EMS was also on scene in addition to LE, and more than likely the FD would have been called to help manage traffic so that LE could concentrate on the shooter. Then again, considering the response to parents and the general level of competence we have evidence to support, this may not have been the case.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/inve ... ould-open/

While they searched for the master key the door was unlocked. They didn't try it. From testimony during closed door investigative session says Paul Bettencourt.

Geez.

It might also be a factor that Uvalde is a fairly small town way out in the middle of the West Texas wasteland, pop. about 16,000. It's a virtual certainty that the majority of those cops hadn't even drawn their weapons in years, even decades. Most of them probably spent more time at the local Dunkin' Donuts than they did at the range. My CHL instructor used to be an armorer for a big city police department, and he regularly saw LEO's guns that were so gunked up with non-use they wouldn't function. I seriously doubt that these guys had the psychological wherewithal to go storming into that building like Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandos.

“Officers with rifles and a ballistic shield were inside school for 58 minutes”
https://www.foxnews.com/us/uvalde-shoot ... 58-minutes

It appears to me no one would make a decision of who was in charge. The first officer on scene should have taken charge.