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Re: His full Name is: Willard Mitt Romney

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:59 am
by RoyGBiv
KC5AV wrote:
smoothoperator wrote:
RoyGBiv wrote:
hillfighter wrote:A third party vote is the strongest possible vote against the status quo.
by what line of reasoning do you reach this conclusion ?
Two of the biggest problems plaguing this country are excessive government spending and the associated debt. So, let me ask two questions to the people who think Republicans are the answer.

Who was the last Republican to leave DC with lower federal spending than when they took office?
Who was the last Republican to leave DC with a lower federal debt than when they took office?
Who was the last third party candidate to leave DC at the end of their presidency?
Andrew Johnson... Because his party dissolved from underneath him after Lincolns assassination.

The only US President ever ELECTED as an independent was George Washington.
He left office in 1797. But Washington never lived in DC, so, the real answer is.... It's never happened.

Re: His full Name is: Willard Mitt Romney

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:40 pm
by APynckel
The political party system in this country needs to be dissolved. It is what is wrong with everything. They are the ones battling for more and more power, not the candidates. Term limits for every office, and make it the worst offense imaginable to be found in violation of your oath of office. If you sign or endorse a bill that is found unconstitutional, you are sent to prison, or exiled from the country as a traitor.

Re: His full Name is: Willard Mitt Romney

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:21 pm
by RoyGBiv
APynckel wrote:The political party system in this country needs to be dissolved. It is what is wrong with everything. They are the ones battling for more and more power, not the candidates. Term limits for every office, and make it the worst offense imaginable to be found in violation of your oath of office. If you sign or endorse a bill that is found unconstitutional, you are sent to prison, or exiled from the country as a traitor.
Practically speaking, affiliations between legislators with common agendas are a useful, necessary and unavoidable thing. I could argue both for and against a viable third party, or fourth... The craziness that is "forming a government" in multi-party countries is a great source of both amusement and consternation.

The problem in THIS country is VOTERS.

Wrong headed politicians are easily removed from office, if the people who vote for them pay enough attention. THE problem, IMO, is that voters are lazy, uneducated, easily swayed by platitudes or irrelevant arguments, have an "issue of the day" mindset (global warming) and are satisfied to suffer fools as long as they can keep their Starbucks and some illusion of freedom and security. I definitely do not blame politicians for our current malaise. Politicians are merely a symptom. I blame "We The People".

Re: His full Name is: Willard Mitt Romney

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:25 pm
by G26ster
RoyGBiv wrote:[
The problem in THIS country is VOTERS.

Wrong headed politicians are easily removed from office, if the people who vote for them pay enough attention. THE problem, IMO, is that voters are lazy, uneducated, easily swayed by platitudes or irrelevant arguments, have an "issue of the day" mindset (global warming) and are satisfied to suffer fools as long as they can keep their Starbucks and some illusion of freedom and security. I definitely do not blame politicians for our current malaise. Politicians are merely a symptom. I blame "We The People".
:iagree:

Re: His full Name is: Willard Mitt Romney

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:32 pm
by recaffeination
Funny that Romney supporters are refusing to answer smooth operator's questions and instead choose to toss out red herrings to draw attention away. It's almost like they're Democrats or something. :lol:

Re: His full Name is: Willard Mitt Romney

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:56 pm
by Jim Beaux
recaffeination wrote:Funny that Romney supporters are refusing to answer smooth operator's questions and instead choose to toss out red herrings to draw attention away. It's almost like they're Democrats or something. :lol:
Are these the questions you are referring to?
Who was the last Republican to leave DC with lower federal spending than when they took office?
Who was the last Republican to leave DC with a lower federal debt than when they took office?
If so, these questions are rhetorical and invalid due to the fact that there is not one republican or democrat who singularly controls federal spending.

A credible question is: Who is better qualified to prepare and administer a budget than an individual possessing a business related education and years of executive management experience?

Re: His full Name is: Willard Mitt Romney

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:59 pm
by RoyGBiv
recaffeination wrote:Funny that Romney supporters are refusing to answer smooth operator's questions and instead choose to toss out red herrings to draw attention away. It's almost like they're Democrats or something. :lol:
Funny that some people think irrelevant questions deserve answers, or it's a sign of some weakness in their original argument.

Re: His full Name is: Willard Mitt Romney

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:02 pm
by clarionite
RoyGBiv wrote:
APynckel wrote:The political party system in this country needs to be dissolved. It is what is wrong with everything. They are the ones battling for more and more power, not the candidates. Term limits for every office, and make it the worst offense imaginable to be found in violation of your oath of office. If you sign or endorse a bill that is found unconstitutional, you are sent to prison, or exiled from the country as a traitor.
Practically speaking, affiliations between legislators with common agendas are a useful, necessary and unavoidable thing. I could argue both for and against a viable third party, or fourth... The craziness that is "forming a government" in multi-party countries is a great source of both amusement and consternation.

The problem in THIS country is VOTERS.

Wrong headed politicians are easily removed from office, if the people who vote for them pay enough attention. THE problem, IMO, is that voters are lazy, uneducated, easily swayed by platitudes or irrelevant arguments, have an "issue of the day" mindset (global warming) and are satisfied to suffer fools as long as they can keep their Starbucks and some illusion of freedom and security. I definitely do not blame politicians for our current malaise. Politicians are merely a symptom. I blame "We The People".

Bread and Circuses... Things haven't changed so much since Roman times. (panem et circenses)

Re: His full Name is: Willard Mitt Romney

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:20 pm
by Jim Beaux
george wrote:I do not agree with George Carlin's political views, but he was right about one thing: we have the politicians we deserve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcCPlkw6dO0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No foul language in this clip.
"If you have selfish ignorant citizens youre going to get selfish ignorant leaders"
Wow, Carlin was brilliant.

Re: His full Name is: Willard Mitt Romney

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:19 pm
by RoyGBiv
clarionite wrote:Bread and Circuses... Things haven't changed so much since Roman times. (panem et circenses)
Apropos... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: His full Name is: Willard Mitt Romney

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:48 pm
by The Annoyed Man
One class of citizens who ARE better off than in 2008: Union Leaders....
Image

I swiped the image off of facebook, so this is courtesy of http://www.facebook.com/ANY1BUTOBAMA

Re: His full Name is: Willard Mitt Romney

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:44 pm
by smoothoperator
Who knew that high unemployment was so profitable for the unions?

Re: His full Name is: Willard Mitt Romney

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:17 pm
by baldeagle
smoothoperator wrote:Two of the biggest problems plaguing this country are excessive government spending and the associated debt. So, let me ask two questions to the people who think Republicans are the answer.

Who was the last Republican to leave DC with lower federal spending than when they took office?
Who was the last Republican to leave DC with a lower federal debt than when they took office?
Republicans aren't the answer but neither are Democrats. Elected officials who adhere to the Constitution are the answer.

Implied in your questions is that at least one Democrat has done this. That's not true.

To answer your questions:
For spending, see US Government Spending
In general spending has trended upward over time but has decreased at times.
Government spending in the United States has steadily increased from seven percent of GDP in 1902 to 40 percent today.

Government Spending started out at the beginning of the 20th century at 6.9 percent of Gross Domestic Product (GDP). As you can see from Chart 2.21, the federal share of that spending was modest. Spending got a big kick in World War I and ended up at about 12 percent of GDP in the 1920s.

Then came the Great Depression, in which President Roosevelt and the New Deal cranked up federal spending, and total government spending rose up to 20 percent of GDP. World War II really showed how the United States could commandeer its national resources for all out war. Government spending peaked at just under 53 percent of GDP in 1945.

President Clinton said, in 1995, that the era of big government was over. But he was wrong. The post World War II era has been a golden age of government spending, and it shows no sign of ending. Although spending dropped back to 21 percent of GDP immediately after WWII, it steadily climbed thereafter until it hit a peak of 36 percent of GDP in the bottom of the recession of 1980-82. Thereafter government spending chugged along in the mid 30s until the mortgage meltdown of 2008. In the aftermath of bank and auto bailouts, government spending surged to wartime levels at 45 percent of GDP. The mortgage emergency seems to have ratcheted out-year spending up a notch. Near term government spending in the future is pegging at 40 percent of GDP.
For debt, see the Bureau of Public Debt

The US has never been debt free in its entire history. The least amount of debt the country has ever had occurred in 1835, when Andrew Jackson was President. ($33,733.05)

The only modern President (1950 to present) who left office with less debt than when they entered office was none-of-the-above. Every President, both Democrat and Republican has left office with a higher debt load than when they entered office. (I'll bet you thought Bill Clinton did - the media lied to you. Shocking, I know.)

These are the Presidents that left office with less debt than when they entered: Thomas Jefferson, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams, Andrew Jackson, Millard Fillmore, Franklin Pierce, Andrew Johnson, Ulysses S Grant, Rutherford B Hayes, Chester A. Arthur, Grover Cleveland, Benjamin Harrison and Calvin Coolidge (the only President in the 20th century).

However, your question is misplaced. The real question is, who controlled Congress, because Congress passes the appropriation bills, and the President doesn't have a line item veto. So the President doesn't have a lot of say over how much is spent. Sure, he can propose a budget, but Congress can reject it. They've rejected every budget Obama has submitted with a unanimous vote. Congress never accepts a President's budget without filling it full of pork and favors first.

The truth is, neither a Democrat-controlled nor Republican-controlled Congress has lowered the debt in quite some time. The last time the debt decreased year to year was 1957. Eisenhower was President, and Democrats controlled Congress. Since 1945, Republicans have controlled both houses of Congress for a total of six years. So you can blame Republicans for six years out of the last 67 years.

Re: His full Name is: Willard Mitt Romney

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:37 pm
by smoothoperator
baldeagle wrote:Republicans aren't the answer but neither are Democrats. Elected officials who adhere to the Constitution are the answer.
Exactly correct! :clapping:

Also to blame are the people who won't vote for friends of the Constitution "because they can't win" in a circular argument that would be very familiar to Captain John Yossarian.