TexasCHLforum.com

jimlongley wrote:The other day at church, my wife fell

Sorry for the diversion, but...


She okay?

9mmGuy wrote:i was told be our instructor that even carrying an empty holster unconcealed was illegal cause it leaves the open question of where is the gun... is this accurate?

I believe your instructor to be incorrect in that statement. A great recent example is the empty holster protest that was perfectly legal.

There is no law against wearing leather or kydex on your belt for all the world to see. That doesn't mean it is a good idea (personal opinions vary on this), just that it isn't illegal.

9mmGuy wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:

frankie_the_yankee wrote:It's not concealed.

Gotta disagree with ya on this one Frankie.

The handgun is openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a
reasonable person.

Even if you KNOW its a holster, it could be empty.

i was told be our instructor that even carrying an empty holster unconcealed was illegal cause it leaves the open question of where is the gun... is this accurate?

No that is not correct. The law is clear that the gun needs to concealed. There is no mention of holsters. Frankie has a point that exposing a properly stuffed holster is a bad idea. I know folks that regularly carry an exposed holster in gun free zones. Its their way of protest.

Liberty wrote:The law is clear that the gun needs to concealed. There is no mention of holsters.

Liberty,

I agree, the law is clear that it needs to be concealed, but not on what concealed is.

§ 411.171. DEFINITIONS. In this subchapter:

3) "Concealed handgun" means a handgun, the presence
of which is not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a
reasonable person.

If a 'reasonable' cop arrests you and a 'reasonable' jury says it wasn't concealed, for all practical purposes it wasn't concealed, regardless whether we or anybody not on the jury thinks otherwise.

We can argue that the gun itself wasn't exposed, but the law doesn't appear to me to say the gun has to be exposed, just that it's presence (ambiguous) is openly discernable to the ordinary (ambiguous) observation of a reasonable (ambiguous) person.

Similarly, a tight T-shirt over a firearm would likely invite unwanted attention. Is the firearm itself exposed? No. Are you going to get attention you don't want? Possibly. However, perhaps for some strange reason it is a plastic practice weapon or an airsoft gun, not illegal I don't think. IMHO, a reasonable person with ordinary observation would think it's a gun, the real thing.

Yes, the continous visibility of the tip of a holster may technically not be in violation, but if someone calls the police, and find the holster isn't empty, you MAY be in trouble.

Kalrog wrote:

jimlongley wrote:The other day at church, my wife fell

Sorry for the diversion, but...


She okay?

Yeah, bug bruise on her hip and a sore elbow, but okay otherwise.

Actually, the one friend that I asked about "exposing myself" was totally clueless as to what I meant. She was so focussed on my wife and the fact that I seemed to teleport from one side of the dining room to the other, that I could have been carrying an AR or a shotgun and she wouldn't have noticed.

I hated "ghetto" jeans until I realized I could conceal carry with them. The loose fit and baggy pants are perfect for me to carry without anyone knowing it.

GrillKing wrote:

Liberty wrote:The law is clear that the gun needs to concealed. There is no mention of holsters.

Liberty,

I agree, the law is clear that it needs to be concealed, but not on what concealed is.

§ 411.171. DEFINITIONS. In this subchapter:

3) "Concealed handgun" means a handgun, the presence
of which is not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a
reasonable person.

If a 'reasonable' cop arrests you and a 'reasonable' jury says it wasn't concealed, for all practical purposes it wasn't concealed, regardless whether we or anybody not on the jury thinks otherwise.

We can argue that the gun itself wasn't exposed, but the law doesn't appear to me to say the gun has to be exposed, just that it's presence (ambiguous) is openly discernable to the ordinary (ambiguous) observation of a reasonable (ambiguous) person.

Similarly, a tight T-shirt over a firearm would likely invite unwanted attention. Is the firearm itself exposed? No. Are you going to get attention you don't want? Possibly. However, perhaps for some strange reason it is a plastic practice weapon or an airsoft gun, not illegal I don't think. IMHO, a reasonable person with ordinary observation would think it's a gun, the real thing.

Yes, the continous visibility of the tip of a holster may technically not be in violation, but if someone calls the police, and find the holster isn't empty, you MAY be in trouble.

I always took "reasonable" person to mean non-law enforcement. Reasonable being a synonym for average. I don't think the law means law-enforcement types when it refers to "reasonable" as they are able to identify simple printing as a hand-gun and the general consensus here is that that is not illegal.

Also, depending on the cant of that pistol, you might be able to see the barrel out of the bottom of the holster.

With many folks carrying Leatherman and other multi-tools, as well as cell phone cases of different shapes on their belts, the bottom of any leather or black nylon case is not really going to raise suspicion of the average person. Once it starts to show the true outline of a frame, then you may need to worry.

Penn wrote:I always took "reasonable" person to mean non-law enforcement. Reasonable being a synonym for average.

Penn, I agree. Unfortunately one above average person can ruin your whole day! This one is close and even though it might adhere to the law, it is too close for my risk tolerance. I don't have a problem with others who are less risk adverse, but for those who are, just be careful!

striker55 wrote:

Wildscar wrote:One more thing. If thats how you wish to dress you might try a IWB holster. If you had one like that I would bet that it would conceal even when you tried to reach for something on the top shelf.

I tried IWB but pants are too tight.

What do you carry?

Have you tried lower back?

dihappy wrote:

striker55 wrote:

Wildscar wrote:One more thing. If thats how you wish to dress you might try a IWB holster. If you had one like that I would bet that it would conceal even when you tried to reach for something on the top shelf.

I tried IWB but pants are too tight.

What do you carry?

Have you tried lower back?

Just got back from Thanksgiving cruise, carry 1911 in cooler temps and 380 bersa in warmer temps. Only have my chl for 2 weeks so still learning (one week had to leave it home).

dihappy wrote: Have you tried lower back?

I would suggest this. Some of my jeans are too tight for a IWB at 3 or even 4 o'clock. I find that IWB small of back is a great alternative to spending a couple hundred dollars on new pants.

I'm also a smaller framed guy (6 foot, 150 lbs) so wearing in this position this helps with printing and bulging as well.

hkshooter wrote:Some of my jeans are too tight for a IWB at 3 or even 4 o'clock. I find that IWB small of back is a great alternative to spending a couple hundred dollars on new pants.

Second-hand stores are a good alternative. I hardly buy any new clothes, just socks and unmentionables. I got a pair of jeans for $1 recently.

- Jim

striker55 wrote:

Wildscar wrote:One more thing. If thats how you wish to dress you might try a IWB holster. If you had one like that I would bet that it would conceal even when you tried to reach for something on the top shelf.

I tried IWB but pants are too tight.

ALways buy one size larger from now on. Longer jacket would fix it though.

age_ranger wrote:

striker55 wrote:

Wildscar wrote:One more thing. If thats how you wish to dress you might try a IWB holster. If you had one like that I would bet that it would conceal even when you tried to reach for something on the top shelf.

I tried IWB but pants are too tight.

ALways buy one size larger from now on. Longer jacket would fix it though.

Yep I hear you, now I have to think about larger pants and longer shirts, jackets.