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Re: Unlicensed open carry in Texas: a proposal
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:18 pm
by Keith B
Charles L. Cotton wrote:I was planning to stay out of it this time around, but a comment made by one of the Utah instructors in the Utah CFP instructor class I took last Saturday is worthy of mention. Utah allows open carry of a loaded handgun, if you have a Concealed Firearms Permit. If you don't have a CFP, you can open-carry an unloaded handgun. (Unloaded would be a semi-auto with no round in the chamber, or a revolver with the first two chambers in the cylinder empty.)
However, it is very rare for anyone to be seen open-carrying in the larger cities like Salt Lake. Even though it is lawful, on the rare occasions when people do, the police almost always get a "man with a gun" call and they have to respond. If no crime is being committed, then the person is allowed to leave, but they were temporarily detained nonetheless.
I have traveled extensively throughout the country for 25 years or so and I can count on one hand the number of people I have seen open-carrying without a badge on their belt. Yes, it is legal in a number of states, but it sure doesn't seem to be commonplace. There is a reason for that.
Chas.
I grew up and was a LEO in Missouri where open carry is legal, and always has been, if not banned by city ordinances (rare.) The Utah instructors comments are right on. In my 34 years there, you might see someone open carrying if they were out in the rural area, but rarely coming into stores and especially not around the urban areas, or even in small towns.
My home town is now about 25, 000 pop. Within the past 6 months, they had an incident where someone was open carrying in a grocery store (legal, even without a license.) There were several 'man with a gun' calls from cell phones and the store itself. When the LEO's arrived, they asked the individual to please take his firearm back to the car. He started yelling' It's my gun, you can't have it!' and trying to stay away from them, but never leaving the store. They advised him he would be arrested for trespassing if he didn't leave. He finally left the store, but was put on the watch list. As far as I know he as never shown back up around town again.
So, if legal or not, it is going to raise suspicions and concerns when someone with a gun is seen, no matter how long it has been OK.
Re: Unlicensed open carry in Texas: a proposal
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:30 pm
by bdickens
There's sometimes an enormous gap between what's legal and what's prudent.
Re: Unlicensed open carry in Texas: a proposal
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:49 pm
by 135boomer
Whether you would carry open or not, think about this. I see it as one more obstacle in the way of anti-gunners who would like to take our CHLs.
Re: Unlicensed open carry in Texas: a proposal
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:56 pm
by drw
135boomer wrote:Whether you would carry open or not, think about this. I see it as one more obstacle in the way of anti-gunners who would like to take our CHLs.
That's a tremendous point I hadn't considered before!!!
Re: Unlicensed open carry in Texas: a proposal
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:23 pm
by Rex B
I gotta weigh in on the side of shootthesheet. 2nd Amendment says "shall not be infringed", and bearing arms means open carry.
While I would almost never carry openly, were it legal, I believe I have the right to do so. Our government should recognize this right.
Re: Unlicensed open carry in Texas: a proposal
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:33 pm
by boomerang
melkor41 wrote:But yeah.....
deadhorse
If you really believed that, I wonder why you even bothered replying.
If the collective membership believed that, it wouldn't make it past one page.
Re: Unlicensed open carry in Texas: a proposal
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:00 pm
by Liberty
Charles L. Cotton wrote:I was planning to stay out of it this time around, but a comment made by one of the Utah instructors in the Utah CFP instructor class I took last Saturday is worthy of mention. Utah allows open carry of a loaded handgun, if you have a Concealed Firearms Permit. If you don't have a CFP, you can open-carry an unloaded handgun. (Unloaded would be a semi-auto with no round in the chamber, or a revolver with the first two chambers in the cylinder empty.)
However, it is very rare for anyone to be seen open-carrying in the larger cities like Salt Lake. Even though it is lawful, on the rare occasions when people do, the police almost always get a "man with a gun" call and they have to respond. If no crime is being committed, then the person is allowed to leave, but they were temporarily detained nonetheless.
I have traveled extensively throughout the country for 25 years or so and I can count on one hand the number of people I have seen open-carrying without a badge on their belt. Yes, it is legal in a number of states, but it sure doesn't seem to be commonplace. There is a reason for that.
Chas.
Just curious,
Do you travel to New Mexico or Arizona? I usually see some body open carry while out the boonies. Folks used to open carry in Phoenix and Tuscon all the time. Don't see it hardly at all in the Phoenix or Tuscon anymore.
Maybe the Californians took over.
Re: Unlicensed open carry in Texas: a proposal
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:20 pm
by DaveT
drw wrote:DaveT wrote:everyone in Texas being able to wear a gun openly without any sort of license or formal training will never fly
How can you confidently assert that, when it is "flying" in other states just fine. Or do you have such a low opinion of Texans, that we cannot handle the kind of freedoms that other states have enjoyed for years?
Chas answered your question, referring to the political reality and I appreciate his response.
If you will re-read my statement, notice I said
"without any sort of license or formal training" as the basis for my statement.
Think about it. We are only allowed to conceal carry legally because we go through training and licensing procedures established by the state of Texas. Even if the legislature were to change their long standing views and allow open carry, I am positive it will only be for those trained and licensed by the state of Texas.... just as concealed carry is now.
As to the other parts of your response.... please do not stoop so low as to accuse me of having a low opinion of Texans. You know nothing about me or my background. If you did, you would realize just how foolish that question actually is.
You mention other states having freedoms that they have enjoyed for years. If you are referring to
unlicensed open carry, please tell me which states currently allow that.
Re: Unlicensed open carry in Texas: a proposal
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:56 pm
by boomerang
DaveT wrote:You mention other states having freedoms that they have enjoyed for years. If you are referring to unlicensed open carry, please tell me which states currently allow that.
New Mexico
Re: Unlicensed open carry in Texas: a proposal
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:41 pm
by frankie_the_yankee
VA, VT, NH, and a number of other states allow unlicensed OC.
But non-LEO OC of any kind, licensed or not, is not commonly practiced in any urban area that I have ever visited, and I have visited a lot of them.
There are rural areas where OC is practiced to the point where it is visible to the casual observer, though still not exactly what I would call "common". Even in AZ it is not all that common, like wearing blue jeans or eating at Mickey D's.
I think social mores change over time, and where OC was once considered the more respectable way of carrying a handgun, these days it is more likely to generate "man with a gun" calls, at least in urban areas.
And yes, I fully realize that there are places that are exceptions to the "rule". I have found OC to be fairly well accepted in AZ for instance - to the point where I attracted zero unwanted attention OCing in Phoenix some yers ago. But in general, OC is problematic in most urban areas.
I see no signs that the present view of society at large towards OC is at all likely to change at any time in the foreseeable future.
I would support making (licensed) OC legal in TX if only to eliminate those (fortunately rare) situations where some good citizen gets hassled for unintentionally allowing their gun to become visible. And as far as I am concerned, if someone wants to OC "just because", I have no problem with it. I do it all the time on my spread, and if I could make a quick trip to the local quickie mart (where everyone knows me anyway) without bothering to cover up I probably would.
But I would much rather see a parking lot law and a "public accommodation" law. By that I mean that operators of public accommodations would no longer be able to ban people from carrying guns, with the idea being to eliminate almost all "gun free" zones.
Both of these issues are much more significant in my eyes than legalizing or expanding OC.
Re: Unlicensed open carry in Texas: a proposal
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:00 pm
by dukalmighty
If you think OC is a crime deterrent ,it might be that a BG sees a gun so he goes 1 block over and robs someone,I think CCW is more of a deterrent as BG can't see who's a threat and if he judges wrong somebody punches his ticket,also in cases of a psycho shooter if he sees you're gun you're getting shot first.I like having the element of surprise on my side
Re: Unlicensed open carry in Texas: a proposal
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:18 pm
by DaveT
frankie_the_yankee wrote:VA, VT, NH, and a number of other states allow unlicensed OC.
Thanks for that information. I appreciate the information. Don't know that I'll ever visit those places though.... they sure are a long way from my back porch !
I would support making (licensed) OC legal in TX if only to eliminate those (fortunately rare) situations where some good citizen gets hassled for unintentionally allowing their gun to become visible.
My sentiments exactly.
Re: Unlicensed open carry in Texas: a proposal
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:59 pm
by KBCraig
DaveT wrote:You mention other states having freedoms that they have enjoyed for years. If you are referring to unlicensed open carry, please tell me which states currently allow that.
The list is far longer than just "New Mexico".
States where open carry is completely prohibited (with exceptions such as sporting activity):
Texas
Oklahoma
Arkansas
Florida
South Carolina
New York
(That's it, only six states with no form of legal open carry.)
States that allow legal open carry for anyone with a license:
Connecticut
Georgia
Hawaii (okay, this one is just theoretical, since they refuse to issue licenses)
Indiana
Iowa
Maryland (almost as bad as Hawaii when it comes to issuing licenses)
Massachusetts(!)
Minnesota
Mississippi
New Jersey(!)
North Dakota
Tennessee
Rhode Island
Unlicensed open carry in rural areas only:
California
Illinois
That's a total of 21 states. Granted, some of those (like Massachusetts and New Jersey) are may-issue at the discretion of the local authorities, and they can revoke a license for any reason, or for no reason at all.
Of the other 29 states, open carry is legal. Some of them allow local restrictions (most notably Colorado). In others, anyone not prohibited from owning a firearm can carry openly (13 of those by my count).
In most states, open carry is legal because it's not illegal. In some states licensed OC is legal because they issue a "license to carry", not a "license to carry concealed".
But in the end, Texas is one of only six states that explicitly bans open carry. I'm pretty sure Texas and Texans are ready to join the rest of the country in easing the restriction.
Re: Unlicensed open carry in Texas: a proposal
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:00 am
by frankie_the_yankee
Your licensed OC list is not fully accurate, at least in terms of the real world.
While RI law explicitly states that a LTC issued by the AG allows for carrying pistols or revolvers "whether concealed or not", the reality is that this part of the law is to allow for uniformed security guards to carry guns. Anyone OCing in public that is not at a gun club and/or not a uniformed guard will generate a "man with a gun" call. (Note that hunting does not come into the picture because RI does not allow hunting with handguns.) While it's true that in the end the cops will be forced to let you go without charges if you have a license, they will do everything they can to discourage you from OCing again. This includes detaining you at the station while they conduct their investigation, (up to 24 hours) taking you into custody using "felony stop" procedures, and anything else they can do. (All of these actions by the police are fully supported by statute and case law.)
I lived there 50 years, the last 8 with a Pistol Permit (as they are called), and I know this "scene" all too well.
In MA, if you're not a uniformed guard, not at a gun club, or not hunting (MA allows for this in some circumstances), it's pretty much the same deal as RI.
I suspect but am not certain that licensed OC in some of the other states on your list such as NJ, CT, MD, and HI involve similar narrow circumstances. Certainly no one in those states (I've been to all except HI) walks around town OCing in plain clothes unless they are showing a badge.
Re: Unlicensed open carry in Texas: a proposal
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:34 am
by phddan
melkor41 wrote:You mean that "if you are going to start shooting, shoot me first" sign on your hip?
Any cites or personal experiences to back this overused myth up?????
Dan