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KaiserB wrote:

Russell wrote:Oh I'm sure the entire world would be better if everyone and everything followed the Bible, but unfortunately the law of supply and demand doesn't

Actually the "Law of Supply and Demand" is a principle ... it really does not follow anything. People on the other hand can choose to follow certain principles.

I see where you're going with this, and the intent is good, but I respectfully disagree. Here's why...

The "law of supply and demand," while maybe not a codified law which is recorded as Law (big "L"), actually does exist as an economic imperative. Even in communist countries, there exist black markets - which are nothing more than the "law of supply and demand" in unfettered practical application, whether or not they are legal. Without government controls - whether by oversight, or whether by outright criminalization - "supply and demand" rules pretty much every human transaction in which goods or services are obtained through purchasing power.

OTH, "principle" is that which regulates our individual behaviors within the context of the economic system of which we are a part. "Principle" is what governs our actions. You can argue that the "price gouger" has no principles. OTH, he might argue that he has a different set of principles. BTW, I'm not arguing in favor of moral equivalency here. I'm just pointing out that one person's principles might be another person's foolishness. That's why I don't think price gouging ought to be regulated by law. And it is also why I think that our economic behaviors ought to be governed by a personal accountability to God, rather than by fear of the law.

I cannot remember the exact quote, but it goes something like this: The economy will equilibrate in the long run, the problem is that we may not be here in the long run.

Russell wrote:That's not price gouging. That's being a smart businessman and taking advantage of a temporary monopoly.

Not really a monopoly, a monopoly has only one producer.

Xander wrote:

KaiserB wrote: Where the price gouging becomes an issue is morally it is wrong, and when it is detrimental to the public good (i.e. selling gas at extraordinarily high prices preventing evacuation during a disaster).

I disagree. I don't think it's detrimental to the public good but in fact, I think it's essential to the public good. As pointed out earlier, extraordinarily high prices during a disaster can be a very good and extremely important part of the supply and demand equation by discouraging excessive demand. If prices are held down encouraging people to bring every barrel and bucket they own to the gas station to fill up "just in case" you run into shortages. You have a far more significant crisis on your hands when people who really do need some amount of gasoline can't get it at all, because there isn't any to get, than if they simply have to pay two or three times as much for it as they would under normal conditions. Personally, I'm all for jacking up the prices of essential supplies during emergencies to ensure that they're available to the people who need them instead of being preemptively hoarded by those who don't.

This is easily said (and readily accepted) by those of us with average means. It would probably be looked at a bit differently by a single Mom with 3 kids, the Elderly on fixed incomes, certain young folks just starting out, etc...

There is an entire "economic group" that your line of thinking doesn't exactly "work" for.

When we expand this support for high prices to other essential goods (not just fuel), you quickly make them unavailable to some folks by means of price alone.

All of the sudden... a single Mom with kids can't afford to "fill" her car (at $8-12 a gallon) in order to escape a Hurricane. Or perhaps she can afford the fuel, but doesn't have enough money to feed her children because the "smart businessmen" have tripled the price of food. But, lets say she brought some food along. Good... the children are fed, but they will have to sleep in the car tonight since all the "smart businessmen" along her route of escape have jacked up the price of a hotel 3 times the normal rate....because, well....its the "smart" thing to do.

But thats O.K., I am sure the woman will be able to find some overcrowded shelter for herself and her children, no problem. I mean....what the heck, if she had only been as "smart" as all of the "businessmen"...she would be able to afford the things she needed.

Sleep well "smart businessmen"....and count the days.

Yes, I know there will always be certain problems with "supply" during hard times. I am further aware that some items will become scarce to nonexistent (at any price). But I disagree that significantly increasing prices during a temporary crisis is "good" for anyone besides the retailer.

Unfortunately, these times of trial...(hurricanes, etc) tend to bring out the worst in people. Most... will think ONLY of themselves and family (if they weren't that way already), this is another form of "greed".

This "greed" is taught at home, in our schools, in our colleges, in our lives. Its all about ME baby, I am the most important thing. MY business and the "bottom line" is the ONLY thing matters, and the "law" of supply of demand is on my side, so there....that proves it, end of story! Hey, "business is business" right?

I am all for a free market, hard work and prosperity (that is the American dream), but I think it is shameful the way some folks take advantage of a crisis for their personal financial gain. There is nothing wrong with making a decent profit, but profiteering is another story. I can assure you...the average retailer who jacks up his/her prices (2-3 times) on essential goods is NOT trying to "stretch out" the availability of them. They ARE trying to make all they can, while they can.

I guess I wouldn't make much of a "businessman", I simply can not "check at the door" my humanity, compassion and conscience.

[/quote]


This is easily said (and readily accepted) by those of us with average means. It would probably be looked at a bit differently by a single Mom with 3 kids, the Elderly on fixed incomes, certain young folks just starting out, etc...

There is an entire "economic group" that your line of thinking doesn't exactly "work" for.

When we expand this support for high prices to other essential goods (not just fuel), you quickly make them unavailable to some folks by means of price alone.

All of the sudden... a single Mom with kids can't afford to "fill" her car (at $8-12 a gallon) in order to escape a Hurricane. Or perhaps she can afford the fuel, but doesn't have enough money to feed her children because the "smart businessmen" have tripled the price of food. But, lets say she brought some food along. Good... the children are fed, but they will have to sleep in the car tonight since all the "smart businessmen" along her route of escape have jacked up the price of a hotel 3 times the normal rate....because, well....its the "smart" thing to do.

But thats O.K., I am sure the woman will be able to find some overcrowded shelter for herself and her children, no problem. I mean....what the heck, if she had only been as "smart" as all of the "businessmen"...she would be able to afford the things she needed.

Sleep well "smart businessmen"....and count the days.

Yes, I know there will always be certain problems with "supply" during hard times. I am further aware that some items will become scarce to nonexistent (at any price). But I disagree that significantly increasing prices during a temporary crisis is "good" for anyone besides the retailer.

Unfortunately, these times of trial...(hurricanes, etc) tend to bring out the worst in people. Most... will think ONLY of themselves and family (if they weren't that way already), this is another form of "greed".

This "greed" is taught at home, in our schools, in our colleges, in our lives. Its all about ME baby, I am the most important thing. MY business and the "bottom line" is the ONLY thing matters, and the "law" of supply of demand is on my side, so there....that proves it, end of story! Hey, "business is business" right?

I am all for a free market, hard work and prosperity (that is the American dream), but I think it is shameful the way some folks take advantage of a crisis for their personal financial gain. There is nothing wrong with making a decent profit, but profiteering is another story. I can assure you...the average retailer who jacks up his/her prices (2-3 times) on essential goods is NOT trying to "stretch out" the availability of them. They ARE trying to make all they can, while they can.

I guess I wouldn't make much of a "businessman", I simply can not "check at the door" my humanity, compassion and conscience.[/quote]




I agree with you wholeheartedly, it is the poor that suffer. It's easy for those with means to pay whatever is asked. Although the good Lord has allowed me to be secure financially to make it through a situation like this, I have been dirt poor before due to no fault of mine. Some may see the poor as lazy, and I would agree that many are, but not all poor are lazy. It is easy for those with money to state that there is no price gouging, their attitude would change when they had no means to survive when prices are above what they can afford.

Thank you, Flint, for your excellent post.

The Free Market concept is based on a fair market price for goods, with goods being material or labor. I seem to recall that an "Honest day's work for an honest day's pay" existed at one time, and goods were either priced or bartered in fairness and honesty. A man's handshake abd his word could be counted on as surely as God makes the sun come up in the morning.

Greed was considered sinful and the greedy were shunned by society as a whole.

Today society idolizes greed as business and free market.

It just ain't so.

Governments will never enforce fairness. Anyone who thinks so is misguided and living in a fantasy world.

Anygunanywhere

So, who was caught completely off guard by this hurricane?

All of those people had several days' notice to gas up and get ready before the prices went up. I don't have any sympathy for the ones who waited until the night before landfall to start looking for supplies.

And, quite frankly, the merchants could have simply locked up their property and left. They were under no obligation to sell at any price. Where would that have left your hypothetical single mother who doesn't care enough about her kids to prepare for something as common as a tropical storm on the coast?

KD5NRH wrote:So, who was caught completely off guard by this hurricane?

I'm guessing of course, but I would say very few were caught "completely" off guard. You will remember though.. that this Hurricane had a very uncertain "track" and that forecasters "missed" this one pretty badly.

At one time, Corpus (and South) were thought to be at risk, then it changed to the Mid-Coastal region, then ultimately to the upper Coastal region. So, some people were indeed waiting to see where it was going to go and how strong it was likely to be. This is reasonable IMO.

All of those people had several days' notice to gas up and get ready before the prices went up. I don't have any sympathy for the ones who waited until the night before landfall to start looking for supplies.

Naturally, the prudent thing to do (based on the most recent information) is to prepare ahead of time, no one would argue that. Those folks (with the means to do so) that put things off until the last possible moment will reap the rewards of there laziness/procrastination.

OTOH, some people have jobs (or other concerns) that simply do not allow them to prepare the same as others. You might be able to fill your vehicle several days before the "smart businessmen" raise the prices, but if your job requires that you stay until just before the storm hits, then chances are excellent that you will need fuel AGAIN before making the exodus. Not to mention the inflated fuel prices you will encounter all the way along your journey (both...going and coming back).

Then... with the new implementation of evacuating folks by means of zip code (priority status), the one's closet to the coast will be buying the available fuel first (not necessarily locally). This may not leave much for folks further inland, but it is an unavoidable circumstance...the system is a good one for the most part IMO.

And, quite frankly, the merchants could have simply locked up their property and left.

True, but merchants by nature (and perhaps necessity) are loathe to miss any sales.

They were under no obligation to sell at any price.

True again. But somehow....you make this sound as if the merchants who stayed behind (with jacked up prices) were doing so out of some sense of duty or benevolence. Lets just say..."I am skeptical of most".

Where would that have left your hypothetical single mother who doesn't care enough about her kids to prepare for something as common as a tropical storm on the coast?

Are you saying that single Mom's with kids (or the Elderly, or the disadvantaged) do not exist, that they are "hypothetical"?
Some folks (for various reasons) are not ABLE to "prepare" as well as others for impending danger, or they surely would.

But, to answer your question (where would that have left them): It would have made it even more difficult for the "Mom" (or anyone else) to escape the path of the Hurricane (or whatever the local crisis was).

So, my hat is off to those merchants/businessmen who continued to provide goods and services (at reasonable prices) to the best of their ability. That type of business practice is very helpful to folks at a time when they need it most. I consider that a selfless act, a moral lesson for all, and expect they will see a reward in no small measure.

Those who stayed behind for no other reason than to profiteer, I will pray for you.

KD5NRH wrote:So, who was caught completely off guard by this hurricane?

All of those people had several days' notice to gas up and get ready before the prices went up. I don't have any sympathy for the ones who waited until the night before landfall to start looking for supplies.

And, quite frankly, the merchants could have simply locked up their property and left. They were under no obligation to sell at any price. Where would that have left your hypothetical single mother who doesn't care enough about her kids to prepare for something as common as a tropical storm on the coast?

+1

Everyone knows the prices are going to go up. This is just another example of a lack of preparation. Eldery folks in the path of a hurricane should of moved themselves out of the way early on. Single mom with 3 kids should of moved herself out of the way early on.

"Hey look!! A giant hurricane is coming this way. I don't have a lot of money. I should probably leave now while it's cheap to leave."

problem solved.

Everyone knows the prices are going to go up.

Exponentially in fact. And because of this...folks will rush to buy up what is available, which in turn hastens the shortage. The premature shortage now gives unscrupulous merchants all the justification they need to jack up the prices. Life is good!

This is just another example of a lack of preparation.

Preparation is good, I am staunch advocate of same. But, fuel and perishable goods are not always something you lay in store long before the need for them arises.

Eldery folks in the path of a hurricane should of moved themselves out of the way early on. Single mom with 3 kids should of moved herself out of the way early on.

What a calloused point of view. Those least able to remove themselves from harms way are summarily dismissed with the penning of "leave early".

"Hey look!! A giant hurricane is coming this way. I don't have a lot of money. I should probably leave now while it's cheap to leave."

I can assure you..it is NEVER "cheap to leave" your home, drive hundreds of miles, feed your family, find housing, attend to medical needs, etc....for extended periods of time. This problem is only exacerbated by inflated prices on essential goods.

I live in an area that receives many of these folks moving North to avoid Hurricanes and it is not a sight I will soon forget. You can see the stress and worry in their faces. I will ask the next family I see with their children, pets and few belongings crammed into a truck, car, van....about how glad are to have left early when things were still "cheap".

These are folks of average means (some less) that have been displaced. They will probably go back to find a certain amount of damage to their homes and property (more expense). The last thing they need at a time like this... is to suffer inflated prices by "smart businessmen" while they are waiting to go back home.

problem solved.

Yeah..."problem solved". And it was so........simple!



It makes me sad to see that we live in a time so abundant with hardened hearts.

Being poor doesn't change the basic economics. Of course some people will be priced out of the product entirely. That's unfortunate and that's an opportunity for those with greater means to provide for others by means of their own charity.

Let's take your single mom with three kids scenario. Say she's trying to flee the hurricane, and realistically before the hurricane gas was $3.50 per gallon and during evacuation it goes up to $7 per gallon (I am guessing, I wasn't there, who knows how high it went). Likewise a hotel room before the hurricane was $50 and during evacuation, let's say it's $100.

So the single mom, trying to evacuate, has $100 to spend. Free shelters are available in Austin and that's less than 200 miles away. This is enough money to get to the free shelter, and if she brings food, she will get there with her children fed. The free shelter is the whole idea!

For people without a car, they must have some kind of arrangement worked out. Get a ride with a neighbor, family member, bus, etc. If they don't, then it is very poor planning on their part and you know, sometimes poor planning puts you in a very bad position. I am not trying to be cold but these are the simple facts.

This has absolutely, positively nothing whatsoever to do with economics, supply and demand, prices of commodities or anything else that is related to "price gouging". You see if the gas price is kept artificially low, then the first people arriving to buy gas are going to buy all of it that they can fit in their tank, regardless of how much they need to evacuate. Families may choose to take two cars, since they can hold more gas in two cars and they can be more comfortable traveling, and since high gas prices are not present to reduce their demand for gas, they will not have any reason not to take all they can fit. Then the gas station will RUN OUT. Then what happens to the single mother and three kids with $100? It wouldn't matter if she had $1,000,000 if there is NO GAS, then she is not going ANYWHERE.

The point of the high prices is to make the limited supply last long enough to serve all of those who need the product. Whether you are poor or not, it doesn't matter. Certainly in fact if the prices are kept low then the poor are going to be worse off, since those who are "of means" will buy far and away more than they need, since they can afford it.

This is a humanitarian problem you are describing, a charity problem, certainly a problem that churches and neighbors and families should be able to address, but it is not an economic problem, nor is it a government problem, unless you are a socialist!

And I mean it, this idea that the poor person should have the same quantity of gas and hotels as the wealthy during an evacuation is the core of socialism. Someone has to pay for it.

mr.72 wrote:Being poor doesn't change the basic economics. Of course some people will be priced out of the product entirely. That's unfortunate and that's an opportunity for those with greater means to provide for others by means of their own charity.

I am not speaking exclusively of the "poor". The Bible is clear on that point: "The poor are with us always...". I am talking about those with fixed or marginal incomes...that are able to "make it" under ordinary circumstances, but are cast into suffrage when taxed by inflated prices during a time of trouble.

Let's take your single mom with three kids scenario. Say she's trying to flee the hurricane, and realistically before the hurricane gas was $3.50 per gallon and during evacuation it goes up to $7 per gallon (I am guessing, I wasn't there, who knows how high it went). Likewise a hotel room before the hurricane was $50 and during evacuation, let's say it's $100.
So the single mom, trying to evacuate, has $100 to spend. Free shelters are available in Austin and that's less than 200 miles away. This is enough money to get to the free shelter, and if she brings food, she will get there with her children fed. The free shelter is the whole idea!

This assumes a lot. The room and resources of the free shelters are finite, they do actually fill up. What if "Mom & kids" have to go to Dallas? Suppose Mom's car isn't all that great and she has to replace a tire along way (perhaps at twice the price). How do you propose to get Mom and Kids back home? Maybe her funds would have allowed for this under normal circumstances (and prices) but now she finds she can not because prices have doubled or tripled!

For people without a car, they must have some kind of arrangement worked out. Get a ride with a neighbor, family member, bus, etc. If they don't, then it is very poor planning on their part and you know, sometimes poor planning puts you in a very bad position. I am not trying to be cold but these are the simple facts.

I have stated before that I support good planning. Everyone should do so the best they can, but it remains....the ABILITY to carry out those plans should not be hindered/circumvented, by those simply seeking to profit off the misfortune of others.

This has absolutely, positively nothing whatsoever to do with economics, supply and demand, prices of commodities or anything else that is related to "price gouging". You see if the gas price is kept artificially low, then the first people arriving to buy gas are going to buy all of it that they can fit in their tank, regardless of how much they need to evacuate.

Artificially low, now thats funny! As far as filling your tank goes, I expect folks to do that. A merchant may choose to "ration" the amount he sells if he/she has any concern about motorists all getting some, but I doubt that is any concern of theirs.

Families may choose to take two cars, since they can hold more gas in two cars and they can be more comfortable traveling, and since high gas prices are not present to reduce their demand for gas, they will not have any reason not to take all they can fit. Then the gas station will RUN OUT. Then what happens to the single mother and three kids with $100? It wouldn't matter if she had $1,000,000 if there is NO GAS, then she is not going ANYWHERE.

Ummm, doesn't kind of work both ways? Gas stations are going to "run out" period. Rationing by means of inflated prices only insures that the more fortunate will be able to continue on some distance. It doesn't do the Mom much good to buy 1/4 tank of gas when her destination is 3/4 tank away. It is probably little consolation that 50 other folks "almost" made it too.

The point of the high prices is to make the limited supply last long enough to serve all of those who need the product.

No Sir, the point of greatly increased prices during times of emergency is to profit at the expense of those who have no choice but to pay your price. The limited supply will not last enough to serve everyone, instead it will serve only those with enough money to pay for all they want/need...and it further restricts the ability of those with less... to purchase what they need. Now, you don't really expect me to believe that merchants raising prices during a disaster is driven by their "want" to serve as many people as possible?

Whether you are poor or not, it doesn't matter. Certainly in fact if the prices are kept low then the poor are going to be worse off, since those who are "of means" will buy far and away more than they need, since they can afford it.

An good example of greed.

This is a humanitarian problem you are describing, a charity problem, certainly a problem that churches and neighbors and families should be able to address, but it is not an economic problem, nor is it a government problem, unless you are a socialist!

I can assure you, there is not a socialist bone in my body. But I do view this as a temporary economic problem as well as a humanitarian problem. The problem with dispensing humanitarian help is the large scale in which it is needed by those fleeing a hurricane, the transient nature of the exodus, the unfamiliarity of the people to know where to go for help, and the short time frame in which the help is needed. In others words, humanitarian efforts can only go so far and are all the more taxed when folks pockets are emptied by merchants trying to make that extra buck!

And I mean it, this idea that the poor person should have the same quantity of gas and hotels as the wealthy during an evacuation is the core of socialism.

Again, I am not speaking of only the "poor". No one I have seen up here is looking for a "hand out" or special favors. They simply want to maintain whatever means (financially) they had BEFORE the storm to flee it. Instead, they are having to make certain funds stretch further than it is possible to do because everyone for hundreds of miles has jacked up their prices. If prices were kept nearly the same, then everyone has the same ability as before to secure a way out. Then it becomes a matter of good planning and circumstance.

No one is asking for a hand-out, they just don't want to be raped (financially) in the name of "business/economics".

I guess some people posting here just cannot fathom the concept that without money you cannot prepare. How is the single mother to prepare when she has no money? How are the elderly to prepare on their fixed income? It took me 7 years to get enough money to buy a generator and plywood (that cost me about 1grand). I spent another $300 on food and supplies. Just where are the poor going to get that kind of money? Where do they get the money to fuel up the old car, hope it makes the trip to wherever there are rooms and then scrape up money for a hotel? It is not going to happen, there will always be people stuck and not able to leave. There are many slackers, but at least for some it is by no fault of their own.

Xander wrote:

KaiserB wrote: Where the price gouging becomes an issue is morally it is wrong, and when it is detrimental to the public good (i.e. selling gas at extraordinarily high prices preventing evacuation during a disaster).

I disagree. I don't think it's detrimental to the public good but in fact, I think it's essential to the public good. As pointed out earlier, extraordinarily high prices during a disaster can be a very good and extremely important part of the supply and demand equation by discouraging excessive demand. If prices are held down encouraging people to bring every barrel and bucket they own to the gas station to fill up "just in case" you run into shortages. You have a far more significant crisis on your hands when people who really do need some amount of gasoline can't get it at all, because there isn't any to get, than if they simply have to pay two or three times as much for it as they would under normal conditions. Personally, I'm all for jacking up the prices of essential supplies during emergencies to ensure that they're available to the people who need them instead of being preemptively hoarded by those who don't.

It is not my definition... and I agree the free market should run as a free market

§17.46(b) of the Texas Deceptive Trade Practices-Consumer Protection Act provides that it is a false, misleading or deceptive act or practice to take advantage of a disaster declared by the Governor under Chapter 418, Government Code, by:

Selling or leasing fuel, food, medicine or another necessity at an exorbitant or excessive price; or
Demanding an exorbitant or excessive price in connection with the sale or lease of fuel, food, medicine or another necessity.

I don't have much to say about price gouging the free market. but I just want to comment on the situation.
I am as libertarian as anyone and believe fully in the free market. More important though is that we are a society of laws.

Many of us don't believe in that insisting on licenses to carry our handguns is illegal and wrong as a I do, yet every 5 years we go through the procedure because its the law. The fact is that price gouging is against the law. Maybe if we didn't have these these laws it would help relieve some of the shortages. The truth is the gougers are breaking the law and deserve any punishment they get. Just as anyone knowingly illegally carrying is asking for trouble.