made by store clerk

[smokindragon]

Wow finally an interesting story that we can all learn from.

Tired of reading the same old stuff...

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SHARING THAT, YOU HAD MY FULL ATTENTION ....

Glad it turned out good in the end.

[Excaliber]

I do take a little offense to this statement as you dont know how I was sitting, where my vehicle was or how silent the officers were when they arrived. For the record, I was pulled into a parking space with 2 cars on each side of me. The police officers left their cruiser headlights off, no sirens of course. They crept up on me quietly from behind. One second they were not there, the next second I see their flashlights and pistols. I am always very aware of my surroundings. Its easy for people to judge another individuals situation when they were not even there. Its easy to say what you "would have done" or what you "normally do".

No offense was intended. I was trying to call attention to the fact that if the police could move in on you while parking well marked vehicles and wearing uniforms, a street thug could have done the same thing with far less happy results. It's something to think about.

Personally, I carry in the 11 o'clock position, IWB, because my body type does not allow me to carry any other way that is comfortable or that will allow me to easily conceal - I'm petite, with hips that force the grip of my pistol to protrude outwards. The position I carry in is my choice, and it works very well for me. Who cares what some thugs do, and I really doubt that the store clerk even thought about the position of where the OP was carrying his weapon, he had already been robbed recently, he saw a gun, and got scared.

I carry in that particular positon with that pistol only. I carry in other positions depending on what I am wearing and what pistol I have. I feel like I can carry in whatever position I choose. I dont care if gangbangers or stickup artists carry that way.

I agree with both of you that you can carry any way you like - it's your choice. However, when you post an incident account you invite comment on the pluses and minuses of the decisions you made, and other forum members contribute their thoughts in the spirit of trying to figure out what would be the best way to handle that circumstance if it happened to them in the future.

The reason I mention that 12 o'clock carry is favored by many folks who carry unlawfully is that, when a person who is familiar with this circumstance (or who has already been robbed by someone who carries this way) sees an exposed weapon in this position, he or she is highly likely to believe that its owner is carrying it unlawfully and to make a 911 call to have that checked out.

The 12 o'clock carry is favored by these folks because they can threaten / intimidate someone by simply raising the front of their shirt to expose the grip of the gun. Kitty's use of the Smartcarry doesn't fit this profile because the Smartcarry is designed to keep the grip concealed below the waistline of the slacks or skirt.

Observation of an accidentally exposed weapon carried in a strong side hip holster worn by someone who doesn't look like a street thug often results in the observer concluding that the owner is either an LEO or a CHL holder with no 911 call being made.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, there are many factors that can be legitimately considered in determining where and how one carries, and I would not presume to say that no one should ever carry this way. However, if you do decide to use this method, you need to be aware of how it may be perceived if the weapon is accidentally exposed as it was in this incident, and you'll need to have a plan to deal with what comes next.

I would like to add my thanks to newlife 12176 for sharing his experience in detail so others may learn and be better prepared themselves for future situations.

[flintknapper]

Sounds like LEO did fine considering the circumstance.

As others have pointed out, carrying at 12 O'Clock pretty much spells "robber" to a store clerk. Additionally, sitting outside the store for any period of time (no matter what the reason) looks like you are just waiting for the right moment to go back in. I can easily understand the clerks concern.

One thing about this event that caught my attention was this:

Next thing you know I have this very nervous/edgy cop in my face with his Beretta inches from my face.

Seems we see this alot these days. While this practice is certain to "get your attention" (meant to intimidate), it is also an excellent way to lose your weapon. I hope this is not being taught in the academy these days.

[srothstein]

I disagree, I think the police way overreacted. anymore than 2 cars is seriously unneeded. I would definitely file a complaint and possibly file something on the clerk. He was scared so you get cuffed and hassled? Over the last year or so the members of this board have gotten way too easygoing on our rights being violated. IMO as soon as you stated you had a chl and they ran it you should have been apologized to and let go and never have had multiple guns pointed at you.

I disagree. From what I read and the way I interpreted it (reading between the lines and guessing), the police responded in a fairly normal and acceptable manner. They were responding to a call for a robbery in progress (I think). So when they arrived and found the suspect there, they assumed he was a robber and handled it that way. If they had stopped or handled it any different when the OP said he had a CHL, they would have been wrong. What if it had been a robber (partners may or may not be nearby, a logical assumption if he is in the car in front of the store still) and the robber had yelled he had a CHL?

My only real complaint with the police is the unloading of the weapons in the briefcase. Once they secured the OP and his weapons separately, they had time to sort it out and handle it in a more professional manner. Pulling him out at gunpoint and on the ground is the proper tactical response for a robbery call. Getting the rest of the weapons controlled is the next priority. Then get the suspect off the ground and in the back seat of a patrol car and you can calm down and start the investigation. Talking with the clerk to find out he was just scared, running the OP to find out he really had a CHL, talking with the OP to get his side of the story can all be done in leisure. Figure out what to do and unhandcuff him when you are sure. I can see if they had unloaded the weapons by removing the magaiznes and the round from the chamber, but there is not really a justification for unloading any magazines until you get to the property room if the weapon is being confiscated.

[asleepatthereel]

You sure did take it a lot better than I would have.

I assure you I would not have been shaking their hands after being slammed to the ground, handcuffed, and thrown in the back of a squad car.

Glad it worked out for you.

Ditto.
JL

Hold on Yall. Before we start flaming the LEOs actions, Lets take the whole thing into perspective. Guy walks into a conv store that was just robbed recently with a pistol showing (regardless of whether or not the OP knew it) then goes out to the car and sits around for 10 minutes? Yall dont think the clerk was sweating when he called the PD? He probably told them anything short of Osama was sitting outside waiting to rob him again. I would think the PD reacted appropriately. Gotta remember, the cop isnt usually someone who knows you personally, and is accustomed to being lied to daily. They aint fixin to take anymore chances with their lives than you would.

Like someone else said, the whole thing could have possibly been avoided had the OP just appologized and explained the situation, maybe showed him the plastic. Instead, the OP says in effect "have a nice day" and proceeds to go sit in the car for a while.

Hope the OP learned something from his mistake. Id shake their hands too. Especially since they didnt file anything on him.

[asleepatthereel]

I disagree, I think the police way overreacted. anymore than 2 cars is seriously unneeded. I would definitely file a complaint and possibly file something on the clerk. He was scared so you get cuffed and hassled? Over the last year or so the members of this board have gotten way too easygoing on our rights being violated. IMO as soon as you stated you had a chl and they ran it you should have been apologized to and let go and never have had multiple guns pointed at you.

Only 2 cars? What if it had been some crazy dude looking to ambush the officers? You dont take these things lightly, and just send two cars to what was likely called in as a robbery in progress. Remember, the clerk was probably more than a little bit excited when he called 911. Theres no telling what the clerk told them. Look at things from the LEOs and clerks perspective and you will see what I mean.

Fort Worth officers carry Berettas?

[rm9792]

Wondered aout that too, thought they went Glock like everyone else.

[jlangton]

You sure did take it a lot better than I would have.

I assure you I would not have been shaking their hands after being slammed to the ground, handcuffed, and thrown in the back of a squad car.

Glad it worked out for you.

Ditto.
JL

Especially since they didnt file anything on him.

There was nothing to file. No law was violated. He didn't INTENTIONALLY fail to conceal. Isn't it normal protocol to check the ID of the person you're "roughing up" after you have them restrained? If they would have simply done that,they could have saved alot of wasted time and released him. Now,before you go off ranting about him possibly being a threat-there were how many officers there?
JL

[CHLSteve]

Well, thanks for sharing your story. You had to know you would take some flak for it, but it does stir a worthwhile conversation. Hopefully, we all can learn something from this.

Personally, I would leave an area immediately if I thought I had been made by a store clerk. As you said yourself, this was a bad part of town, and I'm sure he's used to dealing with all manner of thugs. Hanging out in front of his store, in a dark parking lot, menacingly eating your tacos as you plotted your robbery probably scared the bejeezus out of that poor clerk.

What do you all think about having a conversation, or offering an explanation to the store clerk at the time you got made? Assuming you were alone with the clerk, would a statement such as, "Oops, sorry about that, I am licensed. I didn't mean to alarm you." I would say licensed because many do not know what "CHL" means.

[CainA]

What do you all think about having a conversation, or offering an explanation to the store clerk at the time you got made?

Or what do do if you're not for sure you were made or not, like the OP had mentioned? That's kind of a catch 22; if he did make you and you didn't say anything like the OP, that's the possible outcome, now if the clerk didn't make you, but you thought he did and offered up an explanation, well, you're made for sure then, 'cuz you made yourself.

-Cain

[The Annoyed Man]

...menacingly eating your tacos as you plotted your robbery...

Now THAT's one for the quote books!

[Excaliber]

I disagree, I think the police way overreacted. anymore than 2 cars is seriously unneeded. I would definitely file a complaint and possibly file something on the clerk. He was scared so you get cuffed and hassled? Over the last year or so the members of this board have gotten way too easygoing on our rights being violated. IMO as soon as you stated you had a chl and they ran it you should have been apologized to and let go and never have had multiple guns pointed at you.

I disagree. From what I read and the way I interpreted it (reading between the lines and guessing), the police responded in a fairly normal and acceptable manner. They were responding to a call for a robbery in progress (I think). So when they arrived and found the suspect there, they assumed he was a robber and handled it that way. If they had stopped or handled it any different when the OP said he had a CHL, they would have been wrong. What if it had been a robber (partners may or may not be nearby, a logical assumption if he is in the car in front of the store still) and the robber had yelled he had a CHL?

My only real complaint with the police is the unloading of the weapons in the briefcase. Once they secured the OP and his weapons separately, they had time to sort it out and handle it in a more professional manner. Pulling him out at gunpoint and on the ground is the proper tactical response for a robbery call. Getting the rest of the weapons controlled is the next priority. Then get the suspect off the ground and in the back seat of a patrol car and you can calm down and start the investigation. Talking with the clerk to find out he was just scared, running the OP to find out he really had a CHL, talking with the OP to get his side of the story can all be done in leisure. Figure out what to do and unhandcuff him when you are sure. I can see if they had unloaded the weapons by removing the magaiznes and the round from the chamber, but there is not really a justification for unloading any magazines until you get to the property room if the weapon is being confiscated.

[Purplehood]

There was nothing to file. No law was violated. He didn't INTENTIONALLY fail to conceal. Isn't it normal protocol to check the ID of the person you're "roughing up" after you have them restrained? If they would have simply done that,they could have saved alot of wasted time and released him. Now,before you go off ranting about him possibly being a threat-there were how many officers there?
JL

Just because the guy flashed a CHL does not mean that he isn't starting a brand-new life of crime. The CHL is not a get-out-of-jail-free, card. As a police officer I would rather make sure that everything was above-board and proper, rather than potentially releasing an actual perpetrator.

If I had flashed a clerk by accident (whether I was sure he saw or not, despite specific mention being made of a facial-reaction), I would have left the store immediately. I have no intention of shocking a clerk in an industry infamous for being robbed on a daily-basis. I would not have sat in the parking lot.

No, I wasn't there. If you decide to present your story to the forum, you should expect some feedback. I am not personally directing any form of "attack" on the original poster, I am stating what I would have done differently BASED ON WHAT HAS BEEN PRESENTED here in writing.

I am glad that the Officer's did treat the original poster as well as they did. It must be a tough business responding to a call for a possible robbery in progress and finding the suspected perp sitting there in his car right outside the store, as described in the 911 call.

[Excaliber]

You sure did take it a lot better than I would have.

I assure you I would not have been shaking their hands after being slammed to the ground, handcuffed, and thrown in the back of a squad car.

Glad it worked out for you.

Ditto.
JL[/quote="asleepatthereel"]

Hold on Yall. Before we start flaming the LEOs actions, Lets take the whole thing into perspective. Guy walks into a conv store that was just robbed recently with a pistol showing (regardless of whether or not the OP knew it) then goes out to the car and sits around for 10 minutes? Yall dont think the clerk was sweating when he called the PD? He probably told them anything short of Osama was sitting outside waiting to rob him again. I would think the PD reacted appropriately. Gotta remember, the cop isnt usually someone who knows you personally, and is accustomed to being lied to daily. They aint fixin to take anymore chances with their lives than you would.

Like someone else said, the whole thing could have possibly been avoided had the OP just appologized and explained the situation, maybe showed him the plastic. Instead, the OP says in effect "have a nice day" and proceeds to go sit in the car for a while.

Hope the OP learned something from his mistake. Id shake their hands too. Especially since they didnt file anything on him.

Asleepatthereel makes a couple of good points here.

Folks should keep in mind that, while this will hopefully be the OP's only such experience, the involved officers will respond to scores or even hundreds of similar calls involving reports of robberies in progress or suspicious armed individuals over the course of a 20 - 25 year career. Officers who don't handle them with aggressive tactics, lawful use of force, and enough deployed personnel and weapons to present the immediate threat of overwhelming force each and every time place themselves at serious risk of not living to collect a pension. Relying on the credibility of what an unsecured suspect tells you is not a proven path to long life either.

Folks who don't think they'd enjoy being extracted from their vehicles at gunpoint and cuffed on the ground would do well to give some thought to how they present themselves in public and avoid duplicating the profile and typical action patterns of the kinds of folks stop'n rob clerks worry about every day.

[dwhitley]

Well, thanks for sharing your story. You had to know you would take some flak for it, but it does stir a worthwhile conversation. Hopefully, we all can learn something from this.

Personally, I would leave an area immediately if I thought I had been made by a store clerk. As you said yourself, this was a bad part of town, and I'm sure he's used to dealing with all manner of thugs. Hanging out in front of his store, in a dark parking lot, menacingly eating your tacos as you plotted your robbery probably scared the bejeezus out of that poor clerk.

What do you all think about having a conversation, or offering an explanation to the store clerk at the time you got made? Assuming you were alone with the clerk, would a statement such as, "Oops, sorry about that, I am licensed. I didn't mean to alarm you." I would say licensed because many do not know what "CHL" means.

I have to say if I thought I was made as you put it I would have just showed him my CHL and said sorry for the flash. Just leaving could have landed you on the News saying attempted robbery suspect.... have you seen him... It’s not a secret society here we have a license then use it and show if you have too..... My 1 Cent.