LaserGrips and concealment

[Abraham]

You betcha!

The musketoon was a fine piece of shooting machinery too - in it's day...

Loyalty for a fine piece of shooting machinery well over a century old in design and performance is to be admired too - laughable, but admirable too.

[jbirds1210]

I'd like to put CrimsonTrace lasrgrips on my Glock 27. Anyone else done this, how does it effect the concealment? I don't want to buy them if they cause an unsightly bulge.

I'd like to put an aftermarket cupholder in my '92 Tempo, but I'm worried that it will be unsightly, or impair the ergonomics of the vehicle. Does anyone know for sure?



I mean, really, worrying about something being unsightly on a Glock or making it hard to conceal is like worrying about something being smelly in New Jersey.

[DoubleJ]

DoubleJ,

It takes time to put the red dot on your target, see it, and respond.

shouldn't take you any longer than acquiring your sights.

[Skiprr]

It takes time to put the red dot on your target, see it, and respond.

The luxury of that amount of time may not (probably won't) be available in a very quick, very short distance (as in 3-6' or so) attack...

I think that is a training issue. If you are "dot hunting" it will slow you down. If you use it to confirm your physical index, it shouldn't slow you down. The low light, ranged shooting, and shooting on the move scenarios it should also help.

If you're actually in a physical contact confrontation (which is statistically pretty likely) and have to use your handgun, your first shots probably should be fired from a close-quarters retention grip with the heel of both the gun and your shooting hand indexed firmly against your ribcage, just below your pectoral muscle. From there, you're shooting at the pelvic region (there are a few reasons for this) without looking at your sights or even the front of your gun: you're very close to the attacker and your point-of-aim comes from practice with that indexed position against your chest. At that range, you're not tryin' to put a round through a particular button on his shirt; you're just trying not to get stabbed or shot while you break contact and get outta the hole.

IMHO, you never want to extend your gun beyond that one-handed, close-quarters retention grip until you're out of immediate reach of your attacker. And it's a dynamic thing: if you have to start firing from a close-quarters retention grip, you're probably going to need to keep firing as you rapidly move off the "X" at an angle and as you extend your gun for a better sight picture as you gain distance. It's not likely to be a tidy, "shoot twice from retention, take two steps away, evaluate the attacker's condition and, if needed, extend to full two-handed shooting stance and deliver two more with precision to COM."

Things are probably going to be happening a lot faster than that, and the half-pint of adrenaline that hit your system isn't going to allow for precise choreography, anyway.

This is where I bring it back on topic because in that intermediate zone of around five to 10 feet from your attacker, you are almost certainly (we hope) always going to be moving your feet and probably won't yet have a full, two-handed, extended grip. But you may well need to be shootin' to save your life or the life of someone else. A good laser can help here.

If the bad guys decided to come in tandem, a laser can also speed target transition, especially on the move. There are several people on this Forum who can handle that extremely quickly with plain, black iron sights (you know who you are), but I'm slow, gettin' old, the eyesight ain't what it used to be, and a laser can help.

A point fm2 didn't mention (he actually said just about everything I have so far, but in less than 50 words), is use of cover. A laser gives you the option of not needing to have your face directly in line with the barrel of your gun if you have to shoot around cover. You can probably imagine several scenarios where that might come in handy. For example, if you need to take a shot from around the front of a car, you might place your gun-hand on the front of the hood while you peek around the bottom of the bumper.

And if you're like me, you don't do well shooting from prone or near-prone positions. Old neck injury limits some flexibility, and I often have a hard time getting a stable sight picture. Lasers can help with that, too.

A last point: lasers can assist in training your basic shooting mechanics. You want to know how good your trigger work is, turn on the laser and practice. You can tell if you pull or push, or flinch or anticipate recoil. You can practice on-the-move dry-firing: if that little dot is bouncing around on the targets in arcs of four or five feet, you gots a problem. They can come in very handy when instructing beginners in obtaining a conventional sight picture: have 'em obtain what they think is a perfect sight picture, then activate the laser; they get immediate feedback.

As others have said, I want to be very clear that I don't think lasers are a substitute for conventional training. IMO, you should be able to pick up whatever gun might be lying there on the street and be proficient with it. But lasers can be a handy addition to the toolset.

(Just one gripe about mine. My master grip is pretty much ingrained with a relatively high index finger position along the slide. With my Crimson Trace LaserGrips, I have to consciously change the position of my index finger or the light is hitting it, not my target. Not a problem once my finger goes inside the trigger guard. But it's a minor point of frustration for me with an otherwise great product. YMMV.)

[fm2]

IMHO, you never want to extend your gun beyond that one-handed, close-quarters retention grip until you're out of immediate reach of your attacker. And it's a dynamic thing: if you have to start firing from a close-quarters retention grip, you're probably going to need to keep firing as you rapidly move off the "X" at an angle and as you extend your gun for a better sight picture as you gain distance. It's not likely to be a tidy, "shoot twice from retention, take two steps away, evaluate the attacker's condition and, if needed, extend to full two-handed shooting stance and deliver two more with precision to COM."

Yes!I've seen that happen in force on force drills. If you extend or project the gun, it can allow the BG to muzzle avert you, a jammed gun, or a lead to a gun grappling situation or a nasty compounded combination of those possibilities among others that may cause you to use some creative language. It takes some training and working through these challenges to overcome the BG's initiative at 0-5 ft.

A last point: lasers can assist in training your basic shooting mechanics. You want to know how good your trigger work is, turn on the laser and practice. You can tell if you pull or push, or flinch or anticipate recoil. You can practice on-the-move dry-firing: if that little dot is bouncing around on the targets in arcs of four or five feet, you gots a problem. They can come in very handy when instructing beginners in obtaining a conventional sight picture: have 'em obtain what they think is a perfect sight picture, then activate the laser; they get immediate feedback.

Excellent idea!

[Nintao]

A last point: lasers can assist in training your basic shooting mechanics. You want to know how good your trigger work is, turn on the laser and practice. You can tell if you pull or push, or flinch or anticipate recoil. You can practice on-the-move dry-firing: if that little dot is bouncing around on the targets in arcs of four or five feet, you gots a problem. They can come in very handy when instructing beginners in obtaining a conventional sight picture: have 'em obtain what they think is a perfect sight picture, then activate the laser; they get immediate feedback.

I shall have to watch for any movement once I get my CT grip and see where I might need to focus my improvements. Good thought there.

[Mike from Texas]

arod757,

Thanks for the head's up.

I got my information from a clerk at a store who's name I'd rather not mention.

Currently, I'm on the fence about putting one on my carry pistol, as one LEO friend advised that in most attack situations you won't have time to use a laser. Too close! Too quick!

Still, if it improves accuracy when some distance IS a part of the equation I might really appreciate having one.

Decisions, decisions...

This has been the exact OPPOSITE of my findings in my training drills. When you take a firing grip on the pistol the laser comes on. Can't get much faster than that . I have found that I can acquire the laser dot much faster than lining up a 3 dot system. In my drills, I have been able to draw from concealment, acquire the laser and dump 8 rounds COM at 5-7 yards in under 5 seconds. With my night sights it averages 7-8 seconds. I call that an advantage all day long.

Also, I totally agree with Skippr, lasers are a definite advantage in very close, bad breath quarters. No reason to fully extend, you can fire from the hip and have some sort of target acqusition. Also, with awkward positions they are definitely an advantage. I only have them on my 1911 right now but will eventually have them on my Glocks and Kel-Tec as well.

I still train with iron sights but I definitely believe lasers are an advantage, not a hindrance.

[Mike from Texas]

arod757,

Thanks for the head's up.

I got my information from a clerk at a store who's name I'd rather not mention.

Currently, I'm on the fence about putting one on my carry pistol, as one LEO friend advised that in most attack situations you won't have time to use a laser. Too close! Too quick!

Still, if it improves accuracy when some distance IS a part of the equation I might really appreciate having one.

Decisions, decisions...

This has been the exact OPPOSITE of my findings in my training drills. When you take a firing grip on the pistol the laser comes on. Can't get much faster than that . I have found that I can acquire the laser dot much faster than lining up a 3 dot system. In my drills, I have been able to draw from concealment, acquire the laser and dump 8 rounds COM at 5-7 yards in under 5 seconds. With my night sights it averages 7-8 seconds. I call that an advantage all day long.

Also, I totally agree with Skippr, lasers are a definite advantage in very close, bad breath quarters. No reason to fully extend, you can fire from the hip and have some sort of target acqusition. Also, with awkward positions they are definitely an advantage. I only have them on my 1911 right now but will eventually have them on my Glocks and Kel-Tec as well.

I still train with iron sights but I definitely believe lasers are an advantage, not a hindrance.

[srothstein]

I support the laser as a targeting device, both as a training aid and as a system to help ensure hits at a distance. I do not think that picking up the dot will be that hard or long in distance combat.

But, I have to admit that I do not think it will help at all in very close range shooting. If you are using your sights at distances of less than 3 to 5 yards, you are taking too long anyway. One of the things I have been working hard to change in police training is the old theory that you should use your sights every time (even flash sight picture can be too long) and that distance is always your friend.

So, get the laser and practice with it, but also practice very close range shooting fromt he hip with no sights or laser.

[Excaliber]

I support the laser as a targeting device, both as a training aid and as a system to help ensure hits at a distance. I do not think that picking up the dot will be that hard or long in distance combat.

But, I have to admit that I do not think it will help at all in very close range shooting. If you are using your sights at distances of less than 3 to 5 yards, you are taking too long anyway. One of the things I have been working hard to change in police training is the old theory that you should use your sights every time (even flash sight picture can be too long) and that distance is always your friend.

So, get the laser and practice with it, but also practice very close range shooting fromt he hip with no sights or laser.

I've found that good hits can be reliably made by focusing the eye on the point you want to hit (a button, pocket, printed letter on a shirt, etc.), bringing the gun up to just below eye level, and looking over the top of the slide at the focus point. It works really well in close, is good out to about 7 yards, and works just fine in low light.

I introduce it by sticking a 1 inch fluorescent dot on the target to use as a focal point initially. It's quite common for shooters to put the rounds into the dot without using the sights at all the first time they use this method.

Folks are often amazed at how well they can do with this technique, which takes very little practice for an experienced shooter to master. It leverages the muscle memory training gained from sighted fire practice.

It may be a little different than what you're used to, but don't knock it until you've tried it.

[DoubleJ]

just call you Rob Pincus!

[Excaliber]

just call you Rob Pincus!

Thanks, DoubleJ - I hadn't come across this book before, but from the reviews it looks like a "must read".

I ordered it today from Amazon.

[KD5NRH]

Thanks, DoubleJ - I hadn't come across this book before, but from the reviews it looks like a "must read".

I ordered it today from Amazon.

Never read any books from him, but I do like a few points of his teaching in videos.

We'll all be waiting for your book report

[Skipper5]

Any suggestions as to laser lights for a SA EMP 1911?? Will Crimson Trace work....how about add'l bulk....using a Galco owb....will still fit?

Thanks for your ideas/help....may go to gunshow on 3/4 Jan.....is that at Market Hall or BigTown??

Appreciate input// John

[Nintao]

Yay just ordered my Crimson Trace Grips for my M&P 40! I can't wait to try them out! Now Wildscar isn't one up on me in this department.