Light triggers on carry guns, why not?

[Liberty]

Thanks Jim, Excaliber. I appreciate the the answers . Once again I'm a bit more knowledgeable than I was before the day started.

[Oldgringo]

Me too. Now I know the terminology for what my semi's go through before I hear "BANG".

[Bunkins]

Creep can also be described as the distance it takes after you "pullup" the slack in the trigger, to release the sear and hammer.. Example, you pull up the slack till you feel resistance, if you notice it will "creep" back a little more before the hammer drops. But if you pull that creep out without releasing the hammer, then take your finger off the trigger, then squeeze again you'll feel a nice clean trigger, thats the feel Excaliber is talking about for the most part. I dont mind "pullup" also described as creep, but I like that nice "breaking glass rod" feel, but with less effort to drop the hammer. I've never met anyone who didnt like a nice clean feeling trigger, though I've met many who dont care much for a light trigger... If you want to feel what I'm describing, go buy some snap caps and try to feel every movement, mess around with it a bit. Take up the slack, take out the creep, take aim and watch how your hand moves when you have a nice smooth quick action, it's a huge difference for most...


I've bought high dollar guns in the past, and still hated the triggers. But like I mentioned before, the first gun I shot had trigger work done to it, and pretty much every gun I've shot after that, and it's often the first mod I do to a firearm after buying.. I modify everything, I can buy it new, 5 minutes later I'm changing it.. So dropping money to get what I want doesnt bother me because I've never bought anything that suited me just fine. Not to mention, compared to my other hobbies, 200 bucks for a trigger group is a drop in the bucket, thats not saying I have money, I just save until I can buy what I want and make it how I want it. Aftermarket parts exist because of picky people like myself. I can see how others would rather not, and would rather get used to it or deal with it, if I could learn how to do that, I probably would be a rich guy But at the same time I keep my stuff until it's slap wore out, because I dont want to tinker with something until I'm happy with it...


Another way I'm looking at this, is that I will target shoot with my Kimber for hopefully for the rest of my life, and that I will never have to use it on a human being. Shouldnt I enjoy that time with it, instead of it being one of those things where I'd rather not shoot it, but have to because I need to stay sharp. If a lawyer decides that they want to play the game of misleading a court because of my modified firearms, well I can come back with about 20 things to make them look like a fool grabbing for straws. I doubt it would come to that, and I hope I'm never in the position I'm in court for using my firearm. I dont think someone dreaming up a twisted story to convince someone I've got a itchy finger is enough to keep me from tweaking this carry gun, or any others I may own in the future, because if it's a justified shooting I seriously doubt this subject would even be spoke of. Now if it was a safety issue, that would be different.

[mr.72]

I have a different angle on this. I didn't grow up shooting hunting rifles or guns at all, so when I went to choose a SD gun I wasn't limited by past habits, and therefore I bought a gun with a heavy DAO trigger with a long trigger pull. Then I went out and learned to shoot it accurately.

The advantage in this case is that I am confident that I will never find a gun in my hand that I am incapable of shooting accurately from the first shot due to the trigger. If you can shoot accurately with a DAO revolver or a S&W Sigma, then trust me, shooting a 1911 is a piece of cake. So in my mind, developing the skill to shoot a DAO 9lb trigger is worthwhile. I guess I kind of think of this like learning to drive a car with a manual transmission. Or learning to clear jams and do basic maintenance on a semi-auto pistol. I think shooting accurately with a heavy trigger is a skill worth having if you really are going to be serious about making yourself become trained for defensive shooting.

Just as I am sure all of you can, I can imagine many situations whereby I might find myself needing to shoot to stop a threat, and having access to only a DAO gun with a heavy trigger.

[Excaliber]

I have a different angle on this. I didn't grow up shooting hunting rifles or guns at all, so when I went to choose a SD gun I wasn't limited by past habits, and therefore I bought a gun with a heavy DAO trigger with a long trigger pull. Then I went out and learned to shoot it accurately.

The advantage in this case is that I am confident that I will never find a gun in my hand that I am incapable of shooting accurately from the first shot due to the trigger. If you can shoot accurately with a DAO revolver or a S&W Sigma, then trust me, shooting a 1911 is a piece of cake. So in my mind, developing the skill to shoot a DAO 9lb trigger is worthwhile. I guess I kind of think of this like learning to drive a car with a manual transmission. Or learning to clear jams and do basic maintenance on a semi-auto pistol. I think shooting accurately with a heavy trigger is a skill worth having if you really are going to be serious about making yourself become trained for defensive shooting.

Just as I am sure all of you can, I can imagine many situations whereby I might find myself needing to shoot to stop a threat, and having access to only a DAO gun with a heavy trigger.

While it's true that one should know how to deal with adversity because the plan never survives the first shot in a gunfight, a long, heavy, creepy DA pull is a disadvantage I wouldn't inflict on myself on purpose.

[mr.72]

While it's true that one should know how to deal with adversity because the plan never survives the first shot in a gunfight, a long, heavy, creepy DA pull is a disadvantage I wouldn't inflict on myself on purpose.

Well I figured if I was going to have to learn a new skill anyway, I might as well learn to shoot in the most versatile way I could.

[Excaliber]

While it's true that one should know how to deal with adversity because the plan never survives the first shot in a gunfight, a long, heavy, creepy DA pull is a disadvantage I wouldn't inflict on myself on purpose.

Well I figured if I was going to have to learn a new skill anyway, I might as well learn to shoot in the most versatile way I could.

There's nothing wrong with versatility. However, once you try a gun with a really nice trigger and see what you can do with it, the ones without tend to lose a lot of their former luster.

[mr.72]

On the contrary, I have shot many guns with very light, short triggers and I still prefer to shoot the ones with DAO type actions.

[Excaliber]

On the contrary, I have shot many guns with very light, short triggers and I still prefer to shoot the ones with DAO type actions.

What works well for others can be helpful in scouting out the options and figuring out what to test, but in the end, the best choice is always the one that works best for you.

[Bunkins]

I can see you point in learning to shoot accurately with a heavy trigger.. Being able to shoot well with any firearm you pick up is a great skill.. It's certainly one I don't have. Sure after a dozen or so rounds I can shoot almost anything I pick up accurately, I just dont like doing that when I have a truck load of guns I plan to shoot that day, gets expensive when your talking about large caliber firearms.

My dad has the same "limitation" I do, except he cant seem to get a handle on it. He shoots his SF Ultra compact, and the first few shots will scare you. Not that he's dangerous or anything, but if the shot had to count, it wont. Put a gun with a nice trigger in his hands and he can shoot with the best of um. But he is not very confident with a semi-auto, just a old guy that has never been around them hardly at all, I've shot and handled his SF more than he has ( he needs to fix that "problem".. In his case I certainly wouldnt put a light trigger in his, but instead try to get a better feel out of it. He hasn't taken the CHL course yet, but he's already said he's taking my Kimber because he cant shoot his Ultra Compact accurately, hand him my Kimber and he can put every shot in the center at 15 yards all day long.

It's very much a issue of what works best for you. If I could grab any gun and shoot it accurately right off the bat then I'd be miles ahead of where I am now.

[G.C.Montgomery]

...If I could grab any gun and shoot it accurately right off the bat then I'd be miles ahead of where I am now.

You know, that is a readily attainable goal and won't cost you anything more than time if you are willing to work at it.

[mr.72]

...If I could grab any gun and shoot it accurately right off the bat then I'd be miles ahead of where I am now.

You know, that is a readily attainable goal and won't cost you anything more than time if you are willing to work at it.

Well, in my mind, this is an important goal, at least for me. But you are going to have to practice with guns with different, heavier triggers. There are guns out there that are commonly carried with 12-14 lb triggers that have 1/2" or more of take-up, unpredictable or unexpected break, etc.

I mean, you may get someone else's BUG handed to you in an emergency (like, say you are in a 30.06 place and you are accompanied by an off-duty LEO when the place comes under attack). If you have five rounds from a DAO Taurus snub-nose with a 14 lb trigger, you can't afford to need 6 shots to get used to the trigger before you can make a solid hit. And if we really ever find ourselves in a real, legitimate impromptu militia kind of environment, the weapons picked up on the field of battle are probably going to be Chinese AK47s with horrid triggers, or so I figure. I know the odds of either of these things happening are asymptotic curves approaching zero, but the need to shoot any gun in combat or self defense is nearly as unlikely. So for me, I might as well train myself for the whole range of unlikely conditions.

[Captain Matt]

What works well for others can be helpful in scouting out the options and figuring out what to test, but in the end, the best choice is always the one that works best for you.

[G.C.Montgomery]

...If I could grab any gun and shoot it accurately right off the bat then I'd be miles ahead of where I am now.

You know, that is a readily attainable goal and won't cost you anything more than time if you are willing to work at it.

Well, in my mind, this is an important goal, at least for me. But you are going to have to practice with guns with different, heavier triggers. There are guns out there that are commonly carried with 12-14 lb triggers that have 1/2" or more of take-up, unpredictable or unexpected break, etc.

I mean, you may get someone else's BUG handed to you in an emergency (like, say you are in a 30.06 place and you are accompanied by an off-duty LEO when the place comes under attack). If you have five rounds from a DAO Taurus snub-nose with a 14 lb trigger, you can't afford to need 6 shots to get used to the trigger before you can make a solid hit. And if we really ever find ourselves in a real, legitimate impromptu militia kind of environment, the weapons picked up on the field of battle are probably going to be Chinese AK47s with horrid triggers, or so I figure. I know the odds of either of these things happening are asymptotic curves approaching zero, but the need to shoot any gun in combat or self defense is nearly as unlikely. So for me, I might as well train myself for the whole range of unlikely conditions.

You raise a valid concern about being able to fight with ANYTHING. And the reality is, I'm being kind and dancing around my real thought here. I honestly feel there is a serious skill difficiency if someone "can't stand" a trigger as light as 4lbs on a handgun. There was a time that 4lbs was considered "light" for a 1911. And that is still the MINIMUM trigger weight for a 1911 in Bullseye. I think the weight requirement in Service Rifle was 3.5lbs when I last shot. But if we are really going to talk about light triggers, I used to routinely shoot rifles with triggers well under 500 grams in 50m and 300m rifle as well as 10m air rifle events as a kid. Still, the transition from those "light" triggers to guns with "street" triggers in excess of 4lbs was not a big deal to me because the process of aligning the sights and gradually applying pressure to the trigger while correcting the sights never changes. Trigger travel and weight are generally irrelevant when we apply that process. That's just my opinion based on 20 years of shooting and a whole lot of learning from people who do it better than me.

With few exceptions, how much force is required to move the trigger has little to do with accuracy and precision. Shooting longer and heavier triggers will however, force you to pefect the basics required to make an accurate shot (i.e. gradually applying pressure to the trigger while correcting the sights). With long, heavy, gritty triggers, any habit of slapping, mashing or jerking will show up as a shotgun pattern or bullets landing "off paper" rather than a tight and consistent shot group.

[NTexas_V-Star]

[quote="Excaliber


Once again, Steve has done an excellent job of addressing the relevant points here.

One thing I would add is that, in a life threatening situation, as your heart rate rockets up, you will rapidly lose fine motor control (like what's needed to deftly manipulate a light trigger). In a situation where the finger is in the trigger guard (where it's not supposed to be until you've decided to shoot, but where you may find it in an unfamiliar situation when you're facing a dangerous opponent) the chances of an ND go way up.

On the other side of the coin, heavier is not necessarily better. In a startle response situation, the hands of an adult male will clench with at least 25 pounds of force - more than enough to discharge any gun. If the finger is on the trigger when that happens, that gun is going to fire. Also, as some have already pointed out, a lighter trigger is easier to shoot well with and a heavier trigger adds risk that shots will not go where intended. Shots that go where they're supposed to reduce liability, and shots that don't, increase it.

NYPD, with their heavy triggers and limited availability of training time, has some serious problems with getting their shots to go where they're supposed to. It's hard to say just how much of the problem comes from which cause, but I think it's fair to say that very heavy trigger pulls don't help.

There is no magic trigger pull weight number. Most suitable combat guns have trigger pulls somewhere between 4 and 12 pounds. Keeping the finger outside the trigger guard until a decision to fire has been made is critical with all of them. IMHO going outside those numbers increases risk, particularly in a shooting where justification is not as clear cut as we'd like it to be.[/quote]


I've got an XD .357 SIG that I'll never carry concealed, nor do I even leave it loaded at the casa for home defense for that very reason. It is a super light trigger pull; If it was loaded on the nightstand, and I grabbed it in a panic to respond to a threat, I'm sure I'd accidentally put one through a wall. It's that light.

I didn't read the whole thread, I just thought I'd add that.